Subjects: US resettlement of refugees from Nauru and PNG; Migration Legislation Amendment (Regional Processing Cohort) Bill.
E&EO…………………………………………………………………………………………..
FRAN KELLY:
Minister, welcome back to Breakfast.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Fran.
FRAN KELLY:
What we’ve got here is a deal, not yet a plan really because there’s no numbers and no timeframe that we know of anyway. When will we get this detail?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Fran obviously the Government’s done a lot of work firstly to stop boats because we can’t enter into these negotiations if boats are still arriving and it has taken us a long time to clean up that phase of the loss of control of our borders.
It’s been 841 days since we’ve had a successful boat get to Australian shores so the thought though that they’d gone away, that the people smugglers aren’t there wanting to put people on boats today is a nonsense.
So we argue from a position of strength and we’ve negotiated from that position with a number of countries and we announced the arrangement with the US yesterday. So our intention is to prioritise women and children, family units off Nauru and that work will get underway very shortly.
FRAN KELLY:
There are over 1600 people on Nauru and Manus who’ve been processed and found to be genuine refugees. Are you saying all 1600 will be eligible, pending health and security checks from the US? I mean, do you anticipate all 1600 will end up in the US?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Fran I’ve said for a long time that our priority was to stop boats and get children out of detention. We’ve done that, we’ve closed 17 detention centres and we want to get people off both Manus and Nauru.
Now we need to work through that in an orderly way and as you point out there will be security and health checks that the US will require – while it’s worth noting that given the significant support through the health system on Nauru and education system and the ability for us to engage with those people there is a lot of work that’s already done particularly around the health needs, that’s been well documented for a long period of time.
So the US will go through their process and the most important thing for us is that boats don’t recommence because that would jeopardise any arrangement or any deal and that’s why we have called on the Opposition to support this proposal, to support elements of it, which include the legislation that they voted against last week.
FRAN KELLY:
I’ll come to that a little later. I’m just trying to get a sense of this deal though. Do you anticipate all 1600 processed refugees will end up in America?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Fran it’s hard to say because we don’t know what the US response will be to each of those cases. Certainly it’s our desire to get people off Nauru and Manus, but to do it in a way that’s not going to recommence boats so…
FRAN KELLY:
I get that and I want to come to the ring of steel, I will come to that, but I’m trying to get a sense of whether the Government….the extent of this deal I suppose. Do we think America is going to be the answer to making sure there’s no refugees left on Nauru or Manus or is this just step one and you know we can’t expect America to take all 1600? What’s the scope of this deal as you understand it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Fran I know the exact detail of the deal, but we’re not publicly disclosing all of that detail because…
FRAN KELLY:
…you do know it, did you say?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course and we’ve been in negotiations with the United States for a long period of time and there are other countries we’re in sensitive conversations with at the moment so all of that will continue.
There are options for people to go back to their countries of origin and if people have been found not to be refugees then this deal is not applicable to them. And it’s important that we stress again that this arrangement with the US has been entered into on the basis that it will not apply to new arrivals. So people who think that it’s smart to be out there saying, ‘come to Nauru’ or ‘hop on a boat, come to Australia’ and somehow you’ll be settled in the US, that will not happen.
So we need to deal with the realities of the threat that we face, but I must say that I find it particularly confronting to have Mr Shorten’s spokesperson out there peddling lies this morning about the legislation when they’ve been provided with a briefing, they’ve been given the information and sadly Mr Shorten’s spokesperson in this space is out there peddling mistruths and I think it’s quite disingenuous particularly at this sensitive point in time.
FRAN KELLY:
What you seem to be saying though is that you’re discussing this with other countries, so this, we know the Prime Minister has been exercised with this since the moment he took on the leadership. We know that he’s been, you know, motivated all his Ministers to get out and try and get this resettlement. It’s taken a while just dealing with this. Has it taken longer, I mean, has it been sped up at the end here because of the impending election of Donald Trump? Has that changed the timeframe around this announcement?
PETER DUTTON:
No, the arrangement obviously is contingent upon us increasing our assets both on the water and in the air because, as I say, people who think this problem has gone away or that people smugglers won’t use this as an opportunity to market to people just don’t understand this space. So we have been working for a long period of time to get to the announcement yesterday. Logistically there is an enormous amount of work that goes in to any of these announcements.
The Rudd/Gillard, or the Gillard Government, made announcements about East Timor and Malaysia and not a single person ever went to either of those countries.
So we have meticulously gone through this with our Advisers, with our Chiefs of the Defence Force, with Australian Border Force, Operation Sovereign Borders – all of those people have been working together with DFAT and all of these works are of course heading in a parallel direction. It’s not the case that we can’t negotiate with other countries while we’re negotiating with the United States and…
FRAN KELLY:
…so just on that, you’ve said this a few times now that you’ve been busily negotiating with other countries, America, New Zealand, Canada are countries that we may have assumed might come on board to help Australia here. In the past you’ve ruled out a deal with a country like New Zealand because, to use a Government quote, ‘it might put the sugar back on the table,’ you know, ‘settlement in a country in New Zealand would be used by the people smugglers as a marketing opportunity’ – that’s what you and the Prime Minister have said. So is New Zealand still ruled out and why is the US any different in that sense or is the Government changing its strategy here?
PETER DUTTON:
Fran my views in relation to New Zealand haven’t changed and as I’ve said before …
FRAN KELLY:
…why is the US any different though to New Zealand?
PETER DUTTON:
Well even in the run up to this deal the policy that I’ve taken is that we’re just not commenting on individual countries – not ruling in, not ruling out. We’re not talking about detail and we’re not signalling our punches to people smugglers. I mean that’s at the core here. We’re not signalling our punches to people smugglers during the course of Operation Sovereign Borders and we’ve had success.
I think people need to recognise that these syndicates are organised criminal syndicates. They have a very sophisticated IT operation in terms of distribution of messages, of getting out messages every time there’s a case that goes to the High Court here or there’s a Premier who makes a comment about wanting to settle people or I say that we’ve got children out of detention. They turn this into an opportunity to market; if you’ve got children, put them on a boat, now’s the time to send them. The Premier of, you know, wherever state has said this – this is an opportunity to come. This matter is in the High Court – this is going to rule out your opportunity to be blocked from going to Australia and the gate will be opened again…
FRAN KELLY:
…I understand.
PETER DUTTON:
…I mean this is the reality of what we’re dealing with. So when we haven’t released all of the detail there is a lot of thought that’s gone behind that and we’ve released as much detail as we can. Our focus now is to make sure that we stare down this threat because we don’t want boats arriving and vacancies that we’ve created, we don’t want those vacancies refilled by new arrivals.
FRAN KELLY:
Ok, a couple of quick questions about the people on Manus and Nauru. So the 1600, priority will be women, children and family groups. What about, there are 500 people on Nauru and Manus who are yet to have their claims processed. Phil Glendenning from the Refugee Council told us this morning those people should be included in this arrangement. Will they be?
PETER DUTTON:
Well we can talk to the individuals because, as you point out, some have refused to partake in any discussions or meaningful discussions about their claims. They’ve refused to provide documentation or information that would allow a decision to be made. This may change their view and they might now engage in the process and we’ll have to have a look at those individual applications.
But the very strong advice that I’ve had consistently from day one is that if people come to Australia then that is the absolute golden nugget for people smugglers and they will use that as an opportunity without question to restart boats and we’re not going to allow that to happen.
FRAN KELLY:
What about the 340 I think it is or maybe a bit more who are here in Australia for medical reasons and other reasons? Will they be processed straight from Australia to the US through this deal?
PETER DUTTON:
The expectation is that they will return to Nauru which was the arrangement that we agreed to when they came to Australia. So they came for medical attention and many people came not in need of medical attention, but to support the one family member who might have needed medical support. So once that medical support has been provided the arrangement is that those people will return predominately to Nauru, but in some cases to Manus as well.
FRAN KELLY:
And those who are left, found not to be genuine refugees left on Nauru and Manus, primarily Manus perhaps – they will be offered a 20 year visa so they will be left to fend for themselves in Papua New Guinea, is this the idea? And is the Papua New Guinean Government relaxed about that?
PETER DUTTON:
No. No so the arrangement on the 20 year visa is that we’re in the final stages of negotiations with Nauru on that visa.
So we’ve been very clear. There are 650 people already who have voluntarily returned back to their country of origin because they’ve found to be not refugees and our expectation is that those both on Nauru and Manus who have been found not to be refugees will return back to their country of origin
FRAN KELLY:
But if they don’t because they’re fearful of persecution, what then?
PETER DUTTON:
Well if they’re fearful of persecution then they have the opportunity through the UNHCR process or through the PNG Government or Nauru Government to make that case. But in the cases where they haven’t been able to make out that they are, to make out the case that they face persecution – that is like tens of millions of other people, then they are economic refugees not people who are seeking asylum or fearing or fleeing persecution…
FRAN KELLY:
…but they can go on to live a life in Nauru and Papua New Guinea, can’t they?
PETER DUTTON:
They will have the opportunity, like 650 people before, to go back to their country of origin. The first principle is that they are not coming to Australia and if they choose to stay on Nauru then that is entirely an issue for them.
FRAN KELLY:
Minister we are out of time, but can I just ask you briefly whether you are still intending to pursue the lifetime visa ban for these people. We know it’s not a condition for the Americans. Is it still a condition for our Government? Can Labor back your resettlement plan to the US without backing your lifetime visa plan? Just briefly.
PETER DUTTON:
Well Mr Shorten was on your programme earlier, I heard a grab of it on the programme earlier saying that he’s on a unity ticket with the Government, but I mean that is just a slogan. And if there’s any meaning to it then he has to support this legislation because he worries about people coming in 30 or 40 years’ time on a tourist visa. Well deal with that issue then or deal with the issue when they get into government and repeal the legislation.
The problem that we’ve got Fran is here and now with boat arrivals over the next three or four weeks or three or four months and that’s the problem that we face now. Now if we have new boat arrivals then that jeopardises any arrangement we’ve got with any third country and that’s why the legislation is even more compelling this week than it was even last week.
FRAN KELLY:
Minister, thank you very much for joining us.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks, Fran.
