Subjects: Victorian assisted dying legislation; Same-Sex Marriage; Closure of Manus RPC; Queensland State Election; Leadership.

E&EO…………………………………………………………………………………………..

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Peter Dutton, good afternoon.

PETER DUTTON:  

Good afternoon Raf.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

I don’t know what your position is on voluntary assisted dying, but it’s going to become law here. What do you make of that?

PETER DUTTON:  

Well I obviously haven’t been part of the debate, but I would be one of the people who voted against it. But as I say, I haven’t been part of the debate in Victoria so I don’t know what protections have been put in place or what the nuance has been that they’ve been debating, but that would be my position.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Do you think we’re changing as a society? We had the results of the same-sex marriage survey and I know you’re a no vote on that as well. Do you think we’re changing?

PETER DUTTON:  

Well I was a strong advocate of the postal plebiscite because I thought millions of Australians – either yes or no – should have the opportunity to have their say. People screamed that down at the time, but I think what we’ve demonstrated is that a vast majority of Australians did turn out, which was a great thing; much higher than what you’d get in a voluntary vote either in the UK or in the United States or even across Europe.

I mean, it’s quite remarkable the number of people that turned out and I think the good thing was – from my perspective – that it gave validity to a significant social change in society that, had it been passed by a slim majority within the House of Representatives as people advocated at the time, it wouldn’t have given it the legitimacy that I thought was necessary. So it’s good that people have voted in favour.

And to answer your question directly, I mean, society is changing all the time and there’ll always be social change and push for the next step to be achieved et cetera. So that’s just a feature of a modern society like ours, but any developing society really.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

What do you say to the LGBTIQ people? A lot of them, a huge increase in their mental health concerns – calls to helplines, those sort of things – as a result of the survey. What would you say to them?

PETER DUTTON:  

Well Raf, I know there were lots of claims made and I understand peoples’ angst, particularly if they wanted it legislated straight away, but the fact is there are millions of Australians who voted no and they deserve to have their say as well.

Their view is worth nothing more, nothing less than somebody who voted yes. We live in a democracy and we abide by the outcome of a democratic process and that’s what happened in relation to the same-sex marriage plebiscite.

That’s why I said whilst personally I voted no, if a majority of Australians voted yes in favour of change, that I would vote accordingly – that is, I’d vote yes in the parliamentary vote – because I think you can’t advocate for a parliamentary process or a democratic process such as an election and then not be bound by the result. But individuals will have their positions, but that’s the position that I took.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Philip Ruddock actually spoke to Jon Faine this morning and he will be examining, I guess, the broad issue of religious protections for the Government and coming back to you, but how do you make sure that protecting religious freedom doesn’t become protecting bigotry?

PETER DUTTON:  

Well that’s why Philip Ruddock has been charged to have a look at this, as well as the head of the Human Rights Commission and a couple of others who have joined them in that review.

I think it’s important because, in the end, whether or not you’re a person of religious belief, if you look across Western Sydney, in suburbs and in electorates there – lesser so in Victoria and even in Queensland – there were vast ethnic communities that voted no, that had a traditional view of marriage and so I think all of their views need to be taken into consideration as well.

Whether or not we need to have additional protections is the whole idea of what Philip Ruddock and others have been charged with to have a look at.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Do you think we need them?

PETER DUTTON:  

I think it’s worth examining because I think if there is a view that you can’t express a religious view or that you want to, at some stage in the future, be a part of a workforce or not be part of a workforce at a Catholic school, for example, then I think all of that needs to be explored.

Because – coming back to your original question – there is always societal change and if the trend is against somebody being able to practice freely their religious belief, or no belief at all, then I just believe very strongly in favour of the individual and their ability to speak out.

Whether they support or oppose my view is irrelevant, it’s the fact that they should be able – in a democracy like ours – to express their view. They should treat women with respect, they should be involved in religious practice if that’s their choice, or not, and I think it’s worth having Philip and others look at this so that they can determine whether or not additional protections might be required.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Just on your portfolio Minister, you said last week because New Zealand’s offered to take 150 refugees, I think it is, from Manus Island, you said Australia would have to rethink its relationship – I think that’s your phrase – with Auckland.

PETER DUTTON:  

No that’s not – well Raf, if you’ve got the quote there read it out, but that’s not what I said.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Well what did you mean? Because you said you’d re-examine the relationship.

PETER DUTTON:  

No. No.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

What’s the implication? Are there any implications if they take them on?

PETER DUTTON:  

No, no, I didn’t say that at all.

I said that there are a number of equities in relation to the relationship between Australia and New Zealand – New Zealand to any other country, Australia any other country, whatever permutation you want to look at – but my point was that we are trying to get people out of a terrible situation.

I think it’s outrageous that people are still in the Regional Processing Centre.

We’ve built a new $10 million facility. I want people into that new facility and unfortunately some are trying to convince those within the Regional Processing Centre, those that remain, to stay there, that somehow that’ll twist the Government’s arm. That’s difficult.

We’ve also got people that have been offered or are in discussions with officials from the United States to go to the US and I don’t want people saying that they won’t take up that position or that they suspend their discussion with the officials from the United States because they think there might be some opportunity to go to New Zealand.

The intelligence available to me is very clear in terms of people looking closely at what’s happening.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

So can I just be clear Minister; are you concerned about New Zealand making that offer while there are people in a centre that has no services? Is that your concern? Is that your only concern about the New Zealand offer?

PETER DUTTON:  

My concern for a long period of time Raf is that I want to get people off Manus. I didn’t put anyone there. I’ve got every child out of detention, I’ve closed 17 detention centres, I’ve not had a death at sea on my watch. I’m not about to start going back to those days.

So the point I was going to make – which is I think more important than anything – is that you’ve got people-smugglers right now who are in Indonesia and elsewhere saying to people you can go to New Zealand, you can go to Manus Island for a couple of years and then you’ll end up in New Zealand and you’ll live in Australia.

They are pitching right now and this threat of boats hasn’t gone away. We know there are at least 14,000 people in Indonesia at the moment ready to hop on a boat, but at the moment people won’t hand their money over because they don’t think they will get to Australia. So they are watching very closely the debate that’s going on domestically here at the moment.

And Australia and New Zealand have a unique relationship. It’s not like the relationship with the United States, or even the United Kingdom or Canada or anywhere else. You can, as a New Zealand citizen, essentially travel to Australia as people travel across borders between states domestically here. So it is a very different relationship.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Wasn’t the New Zealand offer different? I thought they were not going to allow those people to travel as easily.

PETER DUTTON:  

No, no, that’s not the case.

They still propose that they would travel seamlessly on the 444 Visa as people do from New Zealand to any Australian state now.

So that’s the problem, that it’s seen as a backdoor entry into Australia. As I say, I don’t want people refusing an offer to go to the United States now when you’ve got an offer on the table and we can get that person out of PNG or out of Manus. I don’t want that situation.

And I don’t want the boats to restart because we’ve stopped four boats in the last 12 or 18 months or so on their way to New Zealand trying to get across the Torres Strait and down the east coast. So I don’t want New Zealand to be a pull factor.

Already, as I say, people-smugglers are pitching the opportunity to get to New Zealand and they look at every word that we say. They’re very prolific in their use of social media. They are organised criminal syndicates and this is a finely balanced operation we’ve got with Operation Sovereign Borders and I’m just not going to allow boats to recommence, deaths to restart. If a boat turns up tomorrow with 100 people on board, the policy of both the Liberal Party and the Labor Party is that those people go into detention until they’re identities can be verified.

We’ve turned back 31 boats, we’ve not had a death at sea and I just don’t want us to get back into a position where we’ve got vacancies being refilled in Regional Processing Centres when I desperately want to close the RPC in Manus and I want to get people into the new centre, into the new arrangement and I don’t want any blockages for that.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Just on the Queensland election this weekend, the LNP there are preferencing – in more than half of the seats in Queensland – they’re preferencing One Nation above the Labor Party.

Now, One Nation are anti-Muslim, anti-free-trade. Do you think their values are closer to your party’s values than Labor? Is that what the preferencing says?

PETER DUTTON:  

Look Raf, I think the reality is that there are lots of wacky policies that a fringe party like One Nation or the Greens would have that you’ve got to negotiate with. You need to say that we don’t represent that party, those values don’t represent us, but nonetheless we’re still able to work with those parties as we’ve demonstrated, as Labor demonstrated when they were in Government with minor parties in the Senate.

There are lots of pretty radical ideas that the Greens have that don’t hinder a Labor Government if they’re in coalition together either at state or federal level.

So major parties need to work with minor parties, that seems to be the modern reality; people are voting for independents. There are independents that support major parties for example on supply and confidence. You wouldn’t agree with everything that those independents have to say, so it’s not an endorsement of that. It’s a political reality that you want people to vote one for, in our case, the LNP in Queensland in the state election. I hope that they do that and I hope that we can win the election on Saturday.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

If I can just ask you to address rumours, which I’m sure you hate addressing, but a lot of speculation about Malcolm Turnbull’s leadership. People talk about a Julie Bishop-Scott Morrison ticket, they talk about a Peter Dutton-Greg Hunt ticket. Is that completely out of the question between now and the next election?

PETER DUTTON:  

Raf, it is the case – and I’ve said it before on your show – I was completely loyal to Tony Abbott. I’m completely loyal as a member of the Cabinet to Malcolm Turnbull.

My judgement is when times get tough we need to double down and provide support to the leader, which is exactly what I’m doing for Malcolm Turnbull.

I want the Government to succeed.

I want his leadership to succeed and I believe that we can beat Bill Shorten at the next election because people rightly have huge doubts about Shorten and what he stands for, his background, what he would do with unions in the future, the CFMEU et cetera. So no, it’s not in contemplation. We back Malcolm Turnbull 100 per cent and want him to succeed.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

So completely out of the question running for the next election?

PETER DUTTON:  

Yes, yes. It’s not something I’m contemplating because I want Malcolm Turnbull to succeed and I want to make sure that we can win the next election because I think it is a crucial election when you look at the taxes that Labor’s proposing, the huge increases in energy costs and the rest of it at a time when I just don’t think families and businesses can afford it.

RAFAEL EPSTEIN:

Peter Dutton, thanks for your time.

PETER DUTTON:  

Thanks Raf, take care mate.