Subjects: Manus Island Regional Processing Centre.
E&EO…………………………………………………………………………………………..
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Minister, welcome to the programme.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Patricia.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
The Manus Island detention centre will shut down. When? What's the timeline?
PETER DUTTON:
There's not a time line on it yet, but obviously we had good discussions with Prime Minister O'Neill today and we've had ongoing discussions with PNG for a period of time, and as you know, we've closed 17 detention centres here on the mainland, we've got every child out of detention and this is a dividend from having stopped the boats.
So we're absolutely determined to make sure that the boats remain stopped, that we don't have any more drownings at sea and that we can get people out of detention and that's the announcement today and I'm very pleased that we've been about to work with PNG.
The original arrangement as you will recall was struck between Prime Minister Rudd and Mr O'Neill to open Manus Island and we've now worked with the PNG Government to close the centre – and that will happen hopefully sooner than later.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
You say that there's no official timeline. You must…I mean, as the Minister, you must have discussed with Peter O'Neill some broad parameters for that timeline. Are we talking the next couple of months?
PETER DUTTON:
I'm not going to go into the timeline, as I say Patricia, because this is an issue for PNG. The detention centre there is part of PNG sovereign territory and we will work with the PNG Government to provide assistance and we will work towards closure as quickly as possible.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay. You say as quickly as possible. Are we talking at least by the end of the calendar year?
PETER DUTTON:
I just don't want to define it. I'm hoping it can happen as soon as possible but it's an issue for the PNG Government to work through and we'll support them in that decision. The most important thing is that we don't want new boat arrivals to fill vacancies that we're creating.
Labor had 8,000 children in detention in Australia. We've now got that number down to zero and I want to make sure that we don't see a recommencement of boats.
So that's why it is important to work through these issues in a methodical way. We're talking to third countries at the moment to look at settlement options in relation...
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
….well if I can take you to that. Late last year you said that preparations were underway to accommodate more asylum seekers at Christmas Island, when this PNG story first broke – the closure – is Christmas Island now being prepared?
PETER DUTTON:
No, so I'll come back to that in a second.
The impact of regional processing is very clear – it does work – it is very clear that in saying to people that you will not settle permanently in Australia that has [inaudible] and that is part of the reason we have been able to stop boats and we will continue with Nauru.
We are keen to get people off, including women and children, as quickly as possible but we need to do it in a way that won't recommence boats, as I say, because I don't want to see drownings at sea again and I don't want to see the vacancies that we've created filled by new arrivals.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay what...
PETER DUTTON:
…and in relation to Christmas Island, the point that I was making last year was that the population within our detention centres – as I say bearing in mind that 17 have closed, of the 17 that Labor opened – the population mix has changed dramatically.
So there are now about 1,600 people in detention on the mainland and we've got some people in Christmas Island as well – but most of those people now will be visa cancellations, and in particular, those that are on Christmas Island will have been involved in some sort of serious criminal activity or they will have committed acts that mean that they have been sent to Christmas Island until they can be deported back to their country of origin – so it is quite a different mix.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So you won't be sending the people on Manus on to Christmas Island?
PETER DUTTON:
No, under no circumstance – and I've made that very clear today and I'll make it clear again now, that people from Manus Regional Processing Centre will not be settling in Australia – I've made that clear, the PNG Government accepts that and that's the consistent approach of the Government.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Where does that leave you though? Where do these people go?
PETER DUTTON:
People will settle in PNG and those that have been found to be refugees under the agreement struck by Labor, when Mr Rudd signed this agreement, those people will settle in PNG. That's the arrangement that has been struck by Labor...
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
…so they will either go home or stay in PNG. What additional resources will you give to PNG? What amount are we talking about? Surely that was discussed today?
PETER DUTTON:
We'll provide additional support to provide the outcome that we want; that is, for the detention centre to close, but we haven't got a final figure on that.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Can you give me a ball park? Are we talking…
PETER DUTTON:
No I can't because we are not at that position.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But will this be substantial, because obviously the Budget is under enormous stress. Will this be a substantial figure? Will PNG be given a substantial amount of money to deal with this now?
PETER DUTTON:
Well yes, and that's the legacy that we've inherited from the 50,000 people that arrived on 800 boats. This Labor legacy of the failed border protection policy, not only did it result in 1,200 people drowning at sea, Patricia, but it resulted in billions of dollars being spent on this programme.
Now, it will take years to clean up this mess and we're working through it. As I said, the first priority for me was to get every child out of detention; we've done that. The priority is to get people off Manus and off Nauru; we're in the process of doing that – I don't want boats to recommence.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay so to be clear, you have confirmed that a substantial amount of money will given to PNG to deal with the closure of the Manus Island detention centre? That was agreed to today?
PETER DUTTON:
In addition to that, there will be a savings for the Government in the long run because at the moment, as you're aware, hundreds of millions of dollars are spent each year in supporting the Regional Processing Centres, both in Manus and in Nauru, because that is a known deterrent to stopping boats and people drowning at sea. So that's the investment that we make.
But Labor did have an $11 billion blowout on this policy. We've returned $500 million back to the Budget by way of savings over the last couple of years in rough terms and so we want to make sure that over the long run we can save money, but we'll do that by also saving lives and making sure that boats don't recommence.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay so Minister Peter Dutton I understand you say that a substantial amount of money will go now to PNG to try and shut down this detention centre. You can't give me a timeframe per se, but you are saying that they either stay in PNG under your policy or they're sent back to their country of origin.
How about if they refuse to go back to their country of origin? What happens in that scenario? Are you still talking to Cambodia? Other countries? Is New Zealand an option? What other options are there?
PETER DUTTON:
As I said to you before we're talking to third countries and Cambodia – there is obviously already an agreement with Cambodia, so that continues and that's for people off Nauru – but we can continue to talk with other countries as we are on a regular basis. But the [inaudible] here Patricia is to make sure that we don't do it in such a way that boats recommence and that's the reality.
You've seen in the last 24 hours we've released detail of a vessel that we returned to Sri Lanka. All of the intelligence that I receive is that people are trying to put ventures together at the moment and people are prepared to pay money to come to our country.
So the threat of boat arrivals and deaths at sea hasn't gone away and we're seeing what's happening in Europe, we see the advice out of the United Nations that there are 65 million…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
…okay sure but we're also seeing on our very doorstep, Minister, these people in substantial limbo over a long period of time and there's still no timeframe for what will happen to them next.
PETER DUTTON:
But if you're talking for example about people from Iran, now the situation with Iranians is that Iran will take Iranians back if they return voluntarily, they will not take forced returns.
Now most other countries that we deal with, New Zealand, United States, Canada, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, wherever it might be, we do have arrangements if we have to deport somebody, we can do it on a voluntary basis or an involuntary basis; with Iran that's not the case.
Now if somebody makes a decision after they've been found not to be a refugee that they don't want to return to Iran, they do face immigration detention and they'll face it in this country or any other country around the world and that's a difficulty that they need to contemplate.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Okay so you mention other countries, you say Cambodia is already there as an option, not many people taking it as we know. What other countries can you name that you're in active negotiations with over the fate of these people?
PETER DUTTON:
Well again we don't conduct those negotiations over the airwaves; we have discussions as we've done today with PNG.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
But are there some countries, can you give me a view, is Malaysia back in the picture?
PETER DUTTON:
There are countries that we're speaking to but as I say the art is to make sure that we don't structure any arrangement in such a way, as happened last time with Julia Gillard's deal with Malaysia where five people came here for every one that actually didn't go to Malaysia, we've taken people and we haven't actually sent anyone to Malaysia under that deal. That's not what we want.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Will any of these 854 people go to Nauru? Is that an option?
PETER DUTTON:
No I don't think it is an option and that's not something that's been contemplated there.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Why not?
PETER DUTTON:
Well the arrangement is for people to be settled in PNG if they've been found to be refugees, that's the deal that was struck by the Labor Party and we'll honour that and we'll continue to work with PNG to help return people back to their country of origin –as many hundreds already have – and we provide settlement packages, provide assistance to help people re-establish in their country of origin.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
So where does this leave you? Do you now go back to Cabinet and get together a submission about how much this closure will cost and the timeframe? Is that what you do next now?
PETER DUTTON:
Well obviously there have been discussions between Prime Minister Turnbull and myself over a long period of time. There have been discussions within the National Security Committee about what our approach might be and I take submissions on a regular basis to that process and then if there's a Cabinet discussion that's involved or if there's a discussion with the Finance Minister and the Treasurer, then obviously those discussions take place – that's all process.
I mean the important thing is that we don't want people drowning at sea, we want kids out of detention, we want people out of regional processing centres and most importantly, we don't want the dysfunction to recommence; we don't want boats restarting and that's the reality if we don't deal with this effectively.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
A lawyer for Manus Island detainees says they don't want to settle on PNG. If they are recognised refugees can't the UNHCR be asked to help settle them in other countries?
PETER DUTTON:
The protocol and the convention that people have signed up to, Patricia, is that if they're fleeing persecution for example then they seek safety and refuge in that port, they've found safety and refuge from the persecution that they claim to be fleeing and they can't then decide that they want to go to another country; Australia or Canada or Malaysia or the US or wherever it might be.
People as I say in great number, millions and millions – there are 6.5 million just in Syria who are internally displaced at the moment – and our refugees we bring in in record numbers but we bring them in a way that they're not going to drown at sea, we bring them by plane and we provide settlement services so that they can settle effectively in our country and start the new life that they want.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Another story has just broken: lawyers pursuing a class action on behalf of asylum seekers on Manus Island in PNG have been given a go ahead to expand their claim to include false imprisonment, Victorian Supreme Court Justice Michael McDonald has ruled that the claim can be widened to allow the lawyers to argue that the detainees had been unlawfully held on Manus. That's a story breaking in The Age by Michael Gordon. How will the Government respond to that? These people are arguing that they have been unlawfully held on Manus Island.
PETER DUTTON:
Well there was a case in the High Court recently as you'd be aware, Patricia, M68 and that found that the Regional Processing Centre arrangement in Nauru, in that case, was found to be lawful and that the arrangement was permissible under the Australian Constitution. So if people think that they've got further grounds to contest matters, they can do that through the courts. Obviously the Government will defend our position and we will do what we believe is right and that is to stop people from drowning at sea, stopping the arrangement, where we can, of putting children into detention and making sure that we have an orderly migration process and that's what we've been able to restore…
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And Minister…
PETER DUTTON:
… it was a significant issue at the last election, it was the election before that and….
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
…well this has been significant for a while, but Minister if I can ask you…
PETER DUTTON:
Sure.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
…did Peter O'Neill take you by surprise today? Were you expecting to go into that meeting to come up with this announcement? Because PNG announced this before we even heard it from our own Government today which was fairly shocking. We heard the news from another government.
PETER DUTTON:
Well I just don't understand why you'd make such a statement.
I mean we had a meeting with the PNG Government today, as you say, it followed many months of discussion about this very outcome and I was able to go to PNG today, the Prime Minister was able to meet and we wanted to make sure that we set some of the parameters for the officials to conduct their ongoing negotiations and discussions.
So we knew exactly what was coming out of the meeting and we've got a very good relationship with PNG. The PNG Government did put out a statement which I saw before I hopped on the flight back to Australia. I drafted our statement and approved that which was released when I landed back in Australia this afternoon and that's the normal course of events.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Fair enough. I'm just asking because, you know, based on which one I received first. Just two more questions…
PETER DUTTON:
Because you're a journalist. Fair enough.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
That is my job. Just two more questions before I let you go. I've gone over time but I can't help myself, this is a pretty big story on our watch. Eight hundred and fifty four men are held, we've talked about that, you say they either stay in PNG or they go home or you'll try third country options but you can't tell me which ones, how many of those people do you realistically expect to stay in PNG? You must have figures.
PETER DUTTON:
Well Patricia again it's a Regional Processing Centre which is in PNG. This is an issue for the PNG Government. We will work with them. We're not going to be dictated to by any other country about what happens within our processing centres here, within our country.
We've been able to close 17 of the 17 that Labor opened. We've been able to get kids out of detention and we'll work with PNG for the best possible outcome and we'll provide support to help those people return back to their country of origin – and if there's some third country arrangement then we're happy to provide support to that.
But at the moment PNG is working through each of the cases and they'll make decisions, as you'd expect about who remains in their country, who they extend support to or visas or passports or travel documents or citizenship to, they are issues for the sovereign nation of PNG.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
And did you talk about a specific sum of money with the Prime Minister of PNG today?
PETER DUTTON:
No I didn't.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Not at all, there was not a dollar figure on the table?
PETER DUTTON:
No. We spoke about the support that we should provide, particularly around accommodation as you'd expect, about employment, about providing support to people and there will be big expenses in that because as I say that's the legacy that we're dealing with that Labor left us and it will take years to clean this up.
So we're working through it as quickly as we can. The most important thing is that boats don't recommence and that detention centres don't have to be reopened because it is the policy of the Labor Party and the Liberal Party that detention centres will operate, accommodate people who arrive illegally by boat and we'll work in record numbers to bring refugees to our country.
We're one of the top three countries in the world in terms of the numbers of refugees that we settle but we don't want people smugglers to be dictating the terms of their arrival, not worried about whether people, including women and children drown at sea and that's the balance that we're trying to strike and I think that's the job we've got and we're doing it effectively.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
Minister, many thanks for your time this evening.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Patricia.
PATRICIA KARVELAS:
[ends]
