Subjects: Apex gang; citizenship; Australia Day billboard image in Victoria; settlement of refugees in Australia; radical Greens group
protesting against Australia Day.
E&EO…………………………………………………………………………………………..
TONY JONES:
We're joined in the studio now live by Immigration Minister Peter Dutton. Good morning to you Minister.
PETER DUTTON:
Good morning Tony.
TONY JONES:
Well, you're here of course because we see this morning that you've, like many of us as I said from the outset, have had a gutful of the Apex gang and all that goes with it, but now you're acting on that and as such; four youngsters with links to the gang will be deported – three of them are New Zealanders, the other from Sudan – in fact, we're told one of the Kiwis has already been sent back. Is this the start of more?
PETER DUTTON:
It certainly is. There's obviously been a lot of work that's taken place with the Federal Police, with my Department, the Australian Border Force – in concert with the Victorian Police – to try and identify people who may have committed crimes or people who are members of gangs and we have a cancellation power under the Migration Act, section 501, which means if people have been doing the wrong thing, if they're here on a visa, we can cancel that visa and deport them.
We've done that in record numbers, particularly for outlaw motorcycle gang members, for rapists, for people who have committed serious crimes against Australians. In the end, this country has been made great by migration because people have come here, in many cases, trying to escape the ravages of war, of civil war, of unrest and conflict, terrorism and they want to come to a country that is safe and they want to come to a great city like Melbourne which is safe, but unfortunately over recent times the activity of the Apex gang and others have meant that Melbourne is in the headlines for the wrong reasons.
TONY JONES:
And they're all over 18?
PETER DUTTON:
These people will be, yes and as I say, there are others that we are looking at at the moment and I think this should send a very clear message to these people that if they cherish the life that they lead here in Australia, they need to start respecting Australians.
They need to abide by the law and they need to adopt Australian values, which means that you respect the law, you respect those people around you, you respect the police and you conduct yourself in a way which would make you a good Australian citizen at that point maybe a couple of years down the track – and this is why we're having this discussion at the moment around Australian values and what it means to take Australian citizenship because it is a prized reward and we want people to come to our country who are going to do the right thing, are going to make a positive contribution – and I think that's what all Australians would expect.
TONY JONES:
You're saying there that you are looking at others, they're obviously Apex gang related; are they aware that they're on the verge of being booted out as well?
PETER DUTTON:
No, they won't be. There will be a lot of work being done in the background at the moment to look at individuals. There's work that Jason Wood has been doing as part of a Parliamentary committee to look at whether or not there are further changes which need to be made to section 501.
It's very difficult – and I know the police feel a frustration here in Victoria as well – when they've got one hand tied behind their back by what is a pretty weak law and order agenda and so there's only so much that the Federal Government can do.
We are working very closely with the Victorian Police, but it is difficult when the bail laws are the way that they are, the move on powers have been weakened and there is not a problem in Queensland or New South Wales with this gang violence, the gang violence is present here in Victoria and I think Victorian Government needs to do more than what they've done in recent months and years.
TONY JONES:
What more should be done? What can be done?
PETER DUTTON:
Well for example activity around the bail laws, changes proactively that can be made there; there needs to be a strong deterrent. We need to send a very clear message to these people that breaking into people's homes to steal keys or following people or ransacking small businesses it is unacceptable. The police feel the same frustration that I think many people here in Victoria do.
I was speaking to Kelly O'Dwyer the other day who's been very passionate, like Jason Wood and others, on this issue trying to find ways through, but as I say, when the police have got one hand tied behind their back it makes it very difficult to bring speedy resolution to what's a very difficult problem.
TONY JONES:
When you talk about the bar laws, does that go hand-in-hand with the Apex gang? I wouldn't have thought that they were associated?
PETER DUTTON:
The bail laws?
TONY JONES:
Oh, sorry I thought you said the bar laws.
PETER DUTTON:
No, no.
TONY JONES:
Oh right, the bail laws.
PETER DUTTON:
I'm talking bail. I'll be clearer, but …
TONY JONES:
…and I think that's the thing that frustrates us as Victorians more than anything else are the fact that, you know, like I read in one of the newspapers this morning about a 13-year-old boy that's carried out some horrendous offences allegedly around the Geelong area and yet for the third time has been bailed. And therein lies the frustration.
PETER DUTTON:
I was a policeman in Queensland for 10 years a long time ago and it is incredibly frustrating when the criminal that you've arrested, after working very hard to bring that person to justice, walks out of the courthouse before you do. That is incredibly frustrating because if you've got people who are repeat offenders, they are committing the same crimes and there is a responsibility obviously of the parents, there's a community responsibility, but there is predominately an issue for the state government here and I don't think they've stepped up to the mark. I think people are rightly angry.
There's only so much that the Federal Government can do with migration law, but we are very serious about making sure that the people that come to Australia are coming here for the right reasons. The great migrants of the past decades that have made a city like Melbourne or a state like Victoria great, have come here because they have wanted to work hard. They've worked hard. They've put their kids through school. They've undertaken English language lessons. They've worked to make the next generation very proud of that heritage and I want that to continue to be the case, and if we've got circumstances where people are not living up to those expectations, then they can't expect to become Australian citizens.
TONY JONES:
You said from the outset that these four that are being sent away are all over 18. Are your hands tied? I mean, can you deport people under the age of 18?
PETER DUTTON:
Very difficult to deport children and this is one of the things that Jason Wood's committee's having a look at at the moment; whether for example the bar could be lowered from 18 to 17 or 16 or whatever the case might be, but we don't deport children. We try and work with families through difficulties.
But as I say, people who expect to become Australian citizens need to abide by the law and they need to adopt Australian values. That is the basic expectation in a country like ours where there are 65 million people across the world at the moment who are displaced would seek to come to a country like ours to provide that new start to their families. Why should we displace those people from the queue and allow people here who are going to do the wrong thing by other Australians? Biting the hand that feeds them is not the way that we want to run the migration programme.
TONY JONES:
To lower the age where you can be deported would obviously create a fair bit of controversy and you'd probably run into a fair bit of opposition, I would have thought, trying to get that bill through, but is that something that needs to be done? Because it seems that these offenders, a lot of them are under 18.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, a lot of them are under 18. A lot of them are in family circumstances which need to be examined. We need to understand why children of 12 or 13 years of age of any nationality are roaming the streets of Melbourne or any capital city, anywhere in Australia. Parents have a fundamental responsibility; they need to meet it and if they're not, then the authorities need to act in that regard as well.
So it is something that the committee can have a look at. It's not something that I've examined, but I'm going to wait and see what the committee has to say and as I say, Jason Wood is very passionate about this issue because he understands the frustration felt by Victorians at the moment in relation to this gang violence.
I think we should look at different issues and different responses and if people can make the case that there are sensible changes that should be supported, the Government will support them.
TONY JONES:
I suppose the other frustrating thing is that we talk about send them back to where they came from and trot out lines like that, which is very easy to do, but the figures show a lot of them are actually born here. Are your hands completely tied in that regard?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, yes, yes they are. So this is the reason in part that we need to get right the initial decision about whether we allow people to become Australian citizens and if somebody's born in our country, we can't deport that person and nor would we given the constitutional realities – we wouldn't seek to entertain that – but in the first instance, we do need to do as much as we can to establish the fact that if somebody's here for four or five years as a permanent resident, and they're able-bodied, they're of working age, and that particular person hasn't worked a day since they've been here, we need to ask questions about whether or not that is a proper contribution, whether or not that person is going to make the best Australian citizen that they could be. We need to look more closely, I think, than what we have in the past and that's part of the debate that we're having at the moment.
We wouldn't send somebody back to a country where there's persecution or a likelihood of persecution or if that person faced risk back in that country. We have international obligations. We're a civilised country …
TONY JONES:
…why wouldn't we do that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we wouldn't send somebody back into harm's way because of the Refugee Convention that Australia's a party to and morally …
TONY JONES:
…even if they've committed some horrendous offences here?
PETER DUTTON:
And there are many cases Tony that we can look at where people have committed crimes, but if people are owed protection, we can't send that person back. Now there is …
TONY JONES:
…but why should we give them protection? If they haven't played by the rules that you've set down to allow them in the country, they're over the age of 18, they've held people to ransom in their own homes, they've held people to ransom in their own cars. Why should we care about protection?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we have to get the balance right and if we're sending somebody back into a civil war zone in some part of the world, for example, or if somebody faces persecution because of their religious belief, if we're sending that person back to a certain death or to face incarceration – whatever the case might be – that's something that we need to weigh up.
At the moment, and as is the case, has long been the case, we have those international obligations and we honour them.
TONY JONES:
Are you free to stay around for another few minutes?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, sure mate.
TONY JONES:
Terrific. We're going to take a break. When we come back, there's other issues I want to discuss; one in particular, which has sort of divided the community I guess, is a billboard depicting two young girls in hijabs which has now been pulled down. So we'll talk about that and some other issues right after this. We're live in the studio with Immigration Minister Peter Dutton.
[commercial break]
TONY JONES:
It's a Thursday morning in Melbourne. We're joined live in the studio by the Federal Immigration Minister Peter Dutton. We've spoken about the ripping up of the visas, if you like, of the four thugs associated with the Apex gang – and the good news is there's more to come hopefully – the other thing Minister I wanted to talk to you about was…I'm not too sure how up with this you are, but the billboard on one of our major freeways, EastLink Peninsula Link, depicting two young girls in hijabs promoting Australia Day, which has now been forced to be taken down as a result of the outcry. Are you surprised, disappointed?
PETER DUTTON:
I've seen the media reports. I mean it's not something that offended me and it's a decision for the state government, I think, that put the billboard up. Ultimately, though, if you want billboards that are going to depict Australian society or the multicultural nature of our society, I suppose you want different faces from different backgrounds, different cultures up there.
I'm not sure whether this was some political statement or what the motivation was otherwise, but I think it's great that we've got young girls, young boys from whatever background who are embracing Australian values, flying the Australian flag, proud to be Australian, proud to be part of our society, want to be part of a peaceful future in this country. They're all the values that all of us embrace and so I don't know much of the background beyond what I've read in the papers, but that'd be my sense.
TONY JONES:
I mean, on face value if you just see the billboard, that particular billboard with the two girls, you think to yourself well, is that entirely necessary? But put it in context, it was actually part of a rolling billboard that showed six versions, if you like, of different nationalities. But it's raised the whole hijab debate in general. I mean, should we be offended by it?
PETER DUTTON:
I don't think so. I think people have different elements to their dress and their culture that they embrace. I think what most Australians expect from any of us, from a migrant background – and ultimately that's the case for most of us – is that we respect the culture from our country of origin, but we embrace Australian values – and this is the whole idea about revamping the Australian citizenship test or looking at people that have got permanent residency in our country.
We want people to be great Australians. We don't want them to abandon their beliefs or their culture, but there are certain aspects that are incompatible with Australian society and we don't want people to trump Australian values with that part of a culture which may not be acceptable here.
Selling young girls off into an arranged marriage is not something that is part of an Australian culture, but there would be many other aspects of people's culture that's completely acceptable and compatible with our rule of law and that's the basic standard that I would seek to apply.
TONY JONES:
There's now a GoFund page which has been established on Facebook to actually re-establish that billboard and they've already raised well in excess of $100,000, which is well beyond their target. Does that say more about Australia than the original push to get it dragged down?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, it says a lot about the power of social media and the way in which causes can gather money together. Look, people feel passionately about these issues. We live in a country where there's free speech. I see today in the papers Richard Di Natale, the Greens leader's refusing to chastise those people that are talking about violent demonstrations or burning the Australian flag on Australia Day; I think that's an absolute outrage. I'm pleased that Bob Brown, the former Greens leader has actually shown some leadership, and he seems to be at odds with Mr Di Natale.
In the end, people can have a protest, they can express views – that is one of the great attributes of Australian society – and if people want to fundraise money in a lawful way to support a lawful cause, that's an issue for them. I think it's not an issue for government and people in the end need to abide by the law. That's the rule that we apply when it comes to free speech and long may it be the case.
TONY JONES:
I'm glad you raised that because I think a lot of eyebrows have been raised as a result of this anarchist greens group, I think they call themselves the Left Renewal, who do want to disrupt Australia Day celebrations. They're going to protest with graffiti sprayed on walls and roads and what have you and the fact that the Greens Leader hasn't condemned it, I think has surprised many people – in fact, I think probably be more surprised if he didn't come out at some stage today and do just that – but what would your message be to that group? What would your strongest message be to that group?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, the message needs to come from somebody like Richard Di Natale because he's obviously somebody that they respect and he mixes in those circles with these people within the Greens movement, and I think there would be a lot of people that voted Greens at the last election that would be dismayed with Richard Di Natale's weakness here.
It's unacceptable that a Leader of a political party within this country wouldn't chastise those people that would seek to break Australian law, and surely he needs to come out, that he must come out today and say to these people; have your protests, do it peacefully, have freedom of speech, do it peacefully, but don't cause damage, don't cause damage to businesses or to homes or whatever it might be and Mr Di Natale needs to show leadership; come out this morning, I think, to express that condemnation that so far he's refused to do.
TONY JONES:
Now, just before you go, one from left field. The story that was kicking around a couple of days ago about the Colombian youngster who is a punk rocker and is seeking residency here because he feels he'd be persecuted in his homeland because of his punkish outfits, his punkish demeanour. I mean, is that acceptable? Is that good enough to actually be living here?
PETER DUTTON:
Ah, well Tony, one thing I can tell you about the Immigration portfolio is you never know what tomorrow holds. There's always a different case, different circumstances, and I may well be a decision maker in that case – so I won't say anything publicly about it – but people come from all sorts of backgrounds that make claims, some of which can be substantiated, others are not, and whilst we are one of the most generous nations in the world in terms of the number of refugees that we settle in our country, there are a number of cases where we reject applications because people haven't been able to make their case and we look at those cases individually and make decisions.
But in the end we are a very generous nation – next to Canada and the United States on a per capita basis – so we are the top three countries in the world of settling refugees and taking people from places where they may be persecuted and that should be preserved, frankly, for those that are most in need.
TONY JONES:
Alright, well thanks for your time this morning.
PETER DUTTON:
Pleasure mate, thank you.
[ends]
