Subjects: AFP investigation of leaks of classified documents.
EO&E...........................................................................................................................................
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Joining me now from Arana Hills in Queensland is the Government's Peter Dutton and Labor's Anthony Albanese in the studio with us now. Good morning to you both.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
Good morning.
PETER DUTTON:
Morning Deb. Morning Albo.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Peter Dutton, it's claimed that journalism is being criminalised in Australia. Are you comfortable with the prospect of journalists and whistle-blowers ending up behind bars?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Deb, if we strip it down, we're talking about highly classified documents. Now the laws that apply today are the same laws that applied under the Shorten government, or the Rudd Government, or the Howard Government in relation to the leaking of documents and if you're talking about highly classified, Top Secret documents, an argument that Albo or I could leak those documents and that there would be no penalty, or that a journalist could have possession of those documents that it might be against our national interest to publish them, that there should be no penalty or consequence for that, would go against tradition in our country that spans back many, many decades, and the same case in other democracies around the world.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Okay, but protecting national security is one thing, but shining a light on possible war crimes by our soldiers in Afghanistan, or reporting on a push for new powers to spy on Australians – which is what these two reports that are at the centre of the raids were revealing – how is that a risk to our national security?
PETER DUTTON:
Deb, if you have a look at the referral, the referral's been made by the Secretary of the Defence Department and the Director General of the Australian Signals Directorate, as I understand it. They have made the referral to the Australian Federal Police. The Federal Police have an obligation to investigate that matter if it's been referred to them and they've got equally an obligation under law to conduct their inquiries independently.
Nobody would accept me as Minister or Albo as minister directing how an investigation should take place or who should be raided, or who should be subject to inquiry. We have laws that operate in this country and the Federal Police, who have been criticised by people – including Albo – which I think has been quite unfair to target those officers individually; and I think that is quite wrong.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
I'm targeting you buddy. I'm targeting you, you're the Government.
PETER DUTTON:
No, mate. I heard your words.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
You're the Government.
PETER DUTTON:
I heard your words. You were criticising the individual police officers.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
That's not true.
PETER DUTTON:
I think even the Police Union's been horrified at the words you said…
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
I don't even know who they are mate.
PETER DUTTON:
Well mate, you said you were horrified by their actions.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
I'm onto you. You're the Government. You're the Government and it is outrageous.
PETER DUTTON:
Stand by your words Albo.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
I have said it is outrageous that Annika Smethurst's house was raided by seven police for seven and a half hours. That's an outrage.
PETER DUTTON:
You're criticising the Police Albo. That is an investigation...
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
…I think – no I'm not, no I'm not.
PETER DUTTON:
…they make a decision. You absolutely are and it's wrong.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
I'm criticising the Government and I'm calling for the Government to explain exactly what it knew about these circumstances. Let's strip it back here; do the public have a right to know if it is being considered that the Government – government to government, two departments – are engaged in a debate to increase spying powers against Australian citizens? Is that in the public interest? Now, the media have a role in a democracy and what we're seeing here is no one in the Government being prepared to defend the role that media has in our democracy, which is essential and I will defend.
PETER DUTTON:
You know that that's not true mate, all of us defend media's rights.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Well Albo, Labor helped pass their laws as they stand…
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
No, no, actually the laws – anyway, we've had briefings….that's not right in terms of, Peter is right that these are old laws that have been in place for a very long period of time. Peter is right.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
So do you want the laws as they stand to be changed?
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
It is also correct that what we need to do is to have a mature debate, a mature debate about what the role of the media is in our society and their capacity to actually provide appropriate scrutiny of Government and of Opposition.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Well Peter Dutton, if we can all agree that a strong media is good for democracy and should be protected, will the Government review the laws as they stand? Because in countries like the US, journalists have protections for whistle-blowers enshrined in law. Should that be the case here?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Deb, we do have protections enshrined in law and we value a very healthy fourth estate. There's no question of that. The AFP have…
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
…but are you concerned that journalists could be facing jail time?
PETER DUTTON:
I'm concerned that if people are leaking Top Secret documents that that can affect our national security. Now nobody is saying that there shouldn't be a debate about what a government is or isn't proposing. There was no proposal incidentally in relation to this extra powers – that's the way it was wrongly reported, but that's a separate issue – but in relation to the media scrutiny, or somebody having a say about what a government was proposing to do or legislation that had been put forward – that's the appropriate time for there to be scrutiny around whatever the proposal might be.
But the leaking or publishing of Top Secret documents which have been classified either by the Defence Department or by the Australian Signals Directorate, there are good reasons and long standing reasons why a country like us, or the United Kingdom, or New Zealand would classify documents in such a way.
The point is that the Federal Police have an obligation to investigate a matter that has been referred to them. They have an obligation under law to do it independently, not with the direction of the Government directing who should be investigated etc, that would be an absurd proposition and therefore the criticism that Albo, and others, has levelled against the individual officers has just been completely unjust.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
I don't even know who the officers are Peter. So the idea that individual officers…
PETER DUTTON:
…Albo, go to your own words, you might regret them, but you made the words.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
…the idea – well which individual officers have I criticised? Which ones?
PETER DUTTON:
The ones that attended the raids.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
Who were they?
PETER DUTTON:
The ones who attended the raid. The seven officers. They're your own words Albo. I can't correct the record for you.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
Seriously, you are trying to distract from the real issue here, the real issue here...
PETER DUTTON:
…not at all…
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
…is that Australians are concerned that media's capacity to scrutinise government is under threat. That's the concern that Australians have. It's a simple one, it's one which you as part of a government, you consistently have been trying to avoid scrutiny in all of the portfolios you've had. So I'm not surprised...
PETER DUTTON:
Seriously.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
…that that's your approach.
PETER DUTTON:
Mate, you're joking aren't you? Just apologise mate and move on.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
Not at all.
PETER DUTTON:
That would be the good thing for you to do.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
I won't be apologising to you Peter Dutton because…
PETER DUTTON:
No, to the police officers. For the policemen and women who…
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
…you characterise the sort of secrecy and lack of scrutiny that embodies your entire political career. You stand up consistently and say...
PETER DUTTON:
…you're digging deeper, you're digging deeper mate, you're digging deeper.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Alright. We are unfortunately out of time.
PETER DUTTON:
Just apologise, just apologise.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Apologise for? What should he be apologising for?
PETER DUTTON:
For attacking the police officers involved. Attack the Government, that's fine, that's his job.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
I'm onto you Peter, I'm onto you.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Alright.
PETER DUTTON:
Seriously Albo.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Gentlemen, well thank you for your time this morning. Unfortunately, time is against it. Lots of other issues to discuss, but we look forward to having you back on program as often as we can.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Deb, thanks Albo.
ANTHONY ALBANESE:
Thanks.
DEBORAH KNIGHT:
Thank you fellas.
[ends]