Subjects: Strengthening the integrity of Australian citizenship; putting Australian workers first – abolition of 457 Visas.
E&EO…………………………………………………………………………………………..
TOM TILLEY:
Now to discuss the citizenship and the 457 changes in detail we have the main man, the Immigration Minister Peter Dutton. Welcome to Hack.
PETER DUTTON:
Tom, it's good to be with you.
TOM TILLEY:
What's the actual problem you're trying to solve with today's announcement?
PETER DUTTON:
Well at the moment we have what's essentially a civics test – and you went through some of those questions in the package before – but we want to ascertain whether or not people are properly abiding by Australian law, whether they're abiding by Australian values, whether they're integrating, whether if they’re of a working age, are working; whether or not if they have kids, are they enrolling their kids in school, sending kids to school, many other aspects to it including for example domestic violence – so perpetrators of domestic violence, do we really think that those people deserve to become Australians – and I don't think we should be apologetic for the fact that we want to make sure that those people that are going to take the pledge, become Australian citizens, be a permanent part of the fabric of Australian society.
We want the best people and we want to be able to identify those people and say to those that don't meet that standard, or may have been involved in gang violence or criminal activity otherwise, we don't want those people to become Australian citizens. We expect more from people that want to pledge their loyalty to our country and that's a part of what we're trying to do.
TOM TILLEY:
Okay, but what's going on right now that's going wrong that requires this change?
PETER DUTTON:
Well at the moment I think it's fair to say that the test has become sort of a function of administration if you like, it's an administrative test where people are filling out a form, they're ticking boxes, they sign the form, it comes in, it's processed, they join the list and they become a permanent resident and then a citizen.
So the whole idea of moving away I suppose from that administrative function or test or process, is to look in a more substantive way at the backgrounds of people, to look whether or not people have been able to improve their English language proficiency, whether or not over a four year period they can demonstrate that if they've had a history of perpetrating domestic violence for example, whether or not in the whole scheme of things around a particular applicant, considering all of the facts of that applicant, whether or not we want that person to become an Australian citizen. So it's a more substantive way I suppose of what I think people would already expect the test or the process to involve.
TOM TILLEY:
But is it about reducing crime levels or the threat of terrorism? Because these are the jobs that police and our law enforcement officers already do.
PETER DUTTON:
In relation to Australian citizenship at the moment, it really is only the most egregious criminals or people with most heinous crimes that would be knocked back. So there is a process at the moment in relation to some checks that are done, but as I say, I think it's for whatever reason under both sides of politics, I think it's been reduced back to an administrative process that once somebody gets the permanent residency, then it's an automatic function to go onto Australian citizenship.
What I'm saying is that we should test some of that and to go to your point exactly; we should be looking at the backgrounds of some people where once they become an Australian citizen it's then very hard to deport that person. Obviously impossible in the case of an Australian citizen, as is the case, as is properly the case. There are constitutional protections for Australian citizens and we don't render people stateless, but I think we should have a closer look at some people and their backgrounds before we accept their application to become an Australian citizen.
TOM TILLEY:
Alright. You and the Prime Minister said today that it's about the allegiance and commitment to Australian values. Can you describe what Australian values are?
PETER DUTTON:
I want to make sure that men and women are treated equally. I don't want people to be discriminated against because of their sexuality or their political or religious belief. I want …
TOM TILLEY:
…does that include marriage?
PETER DUTTON:
It can include marriage, absolutely. I don't want people to be intolerant because of somebody's racial or ethnic background. I want people to live in a tolerant society and that encompasses a lot of what we're talking about in relation to Australian values....
TOM TILLEY:
…but are they uniquely Australian values? Aren't these values held by all western countries? What are we really trying to drill down to here?
PETER DUTTON:
Well it's a good point because there are a lot of western countries, including Canada for argument sake, that goes into a lot more detail – in fact some of the detail that we're talking about now, they drill down into that detail, it already happens in other jurisdictions – and I think the tightening up that we're proposing, frankly, will just bring us up to par with some of those comparable western nations.
So I don't think we're proposing anything here that is extraordinary across the world. Most countries want from their new citizens people that are going to continue to contribute in a positive way and the great thing about our country is that we are – despite what you read on occasion – we are a very generous nation. We settle more refugees under the Humanitarian Refugee Programme than almost…and probably on a per capita basis, second only to Canada. We are a very generous nation.
We saw the footage yesterday of the Yazidis who have settled, who have come from north of Iraq and from elsewhere across the Middle East. These people are being hunted down by ISIS and they are being slaughtered. There is genocide taking place. We have done almost more than any other country in helping those people in the current conflict escape to the borders, come to a country like ours…
TOM TILLEY:
…and that's…
PETER DUTTON:
… make great Australians, they'll make great Australians and they will embrace all of the values that we're talking about and many people that will join them in the Humanitarian Refugee Programme otherwise.
TOM TILLEY:
Okay …
PETER DUTTON:
So there’s a lot that we need to be proud of, but there's a lot that we need to protect.
TOM TILLEY:
You're listening to Peter Dutton the Immigration Minister. We're talking about the Government's big announcement today about tightening up our citizenship test. On the text line, Sean from Townsville says; is this not just the white Australia policy from the '50s all over again. Another caller has called in to say he thinks Turnbull is following Donald Trump.
There is concern Minister that this is targeting the Muslim population in particular. There was a lot of mention about domestic violence today and there was of course that video from Hizb ut-Tahrir last week essentially justifying that for people following the Muslim faith. Were you trying to send a message with today's announcement to the Muslim community?
PETER DUTTON:
No, and I said this morning in another interview, and I'll say it again now, I'll make it very clear; the law's applied equally and we don't discriminate. The problem of domestic violence is sadly, very sadly spread across the Australian community. There is no particular concentration in one class of people or another, of one background or another. Sadly domestic violence exists across society …
TOM TILLEY:
…okay, so if it's not targeting Muslims, when it comes to recognising community involvement in that citizenship test, will you include the involvement in Muslim community groups?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes of course. If people are involved in community groups of any nature, if people are contributing to Australian society – we're a wonderfully diverse society and we want that to continue – but the point that we're making here is that we expect regardless of the background.
I want people to respect, to honour, to observe their country of origin, their cultures, their practices, but once people come to Australia – in addition to that – we want them to abide by our laws. We don't want them to believe that women are to be treated any differently than males within the relationship or the family unit. These are pretty basic values and I believe very strongly that the vast majority of the Australian public will support the Government in what we're proposing here.
Now people can make political points and all the rest of it, but I think frankly a lot of that says more about them than it does about what we're proposing.
TOM TILLEY:
Well some people are agreeing with you. There's one on the text line here: I agree 100 per cent with these changes – and we are talking to the Immigration Minister Peter Dutton.
Let's move on Minister to talk about the 457 changes.
[plays recording]
PETER DUTTON:
I can't understand why we would knock Aussie kids back from getting a job and replace that young Australian worker with an overseas worker.
[end of recording]
TOM TILLEY:
Now on Tuesday the Government announced they were scrapping the 457 foreign workers visas and they're replacing the visa with two Temporary Skills Visas for two and four year periods. They have significantly reduced the types of professions that will be granted these visas.
Now Peter Dutton, this is a big change in direction for your Government because in 2014 under Tony Abbott you actually relaxed 457 visa regulations; the English test was made easier and you streamlined the process of getting that visa. Why are you contradicting that decision now?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Tom there's been a tightening up over the last couple of years and there was a review done in 2014 which shows that there was significant problems around the 457 visa programme.
The numbers of 457 visa holders doubled when Bill Shorten was the Employment Minister and there were rackets and there were rorts going on and it was unacceptable. I've said, again, quite unapologetically, that if there is a job in Australia and it can be filled by a young Australian or a mature-aged Australian who has found themselves out of work, they've been made redundant or somebody that needs extra training; that should be our default position.
Now we've got the ability to bring in foreign workers if we don't have the skill set in Australia. We need to supplement that. It's very important in a number of industries. We accept all of that. But one of the examples that we highlighted was a deal done between Mr Shorten and McDonald's and some of the other fast food outlets where the fact is that foreign workers were brought in to those jobs and we've got areas where we've got youth unemployment, well over 20 per cent and I find it unacceptable that we would not try, at least as hard as we could, to provide that opportunity to a young Australian or indeed a migrant who came here looking for work, looking to provide a better life for his or her family…
TOM TILLEY:
…yeah…
PETER DUTTON:
…and became an Australian citizen. Why would we not do all we could to put that person in that job?
TOM TILLEY:
Absolutely, but it's not always that easy and I want to go to a chef from Sydney, he's actually quite a famous one from My Kitchen Rules, Colin Fassnidge. You use a lot of workers on 457s, you actually came on one yourself. How do you feel about the Government's announcement?
COLIN FASSNIDGE:
Yeah Tom, how are you? First of all, I'd say I'm Irish, but I'm an Australian citizen and my kids were born here, so they're Australian, so it's not taking jobs from Australians. I'll put it this way; we're in the top five industries in Australia. This week alone there was 2,700 jobs on Seek to work in kitchens as chefs and what we've got coming out of TAFEs at the moment is 700 kids, right, this year. So we've got 2,700 jobs a week and for one year we had 600 kids come out of TAFE.
So I would rather give a job to a kid who could get to my restaurant on a bus and not on a plane, but the sad fact of the matter is we've no staff. Our industry is on its knees and even the Government last week promoted the top 50 restaurants in the world. We held it in Melbourne to say how good we are, how good our tourism is, but our industry is on its knees.
TOM TILLEY:
Okay. Peter Dutton, what do you say to that situation? Colin is saying he can't find Australian workers to fill his kitchens.
PETER DUTTON:
But Colin in his – and I don't know the full circumstances of the employment arrangements and what skill set he's after…
TOM TILLEY:
…sure…
PETER DUTTON:
… but there still continues the ability to bring people in on a temporary basis to fill those jobs if they can't be filled by Australians.
So we still recognise that need. It's important because we don't want businesses closing down because at that point they don't obviously employ anybody. So we want them to be vibrant, successful and employ more young Australians. The Government's been clear about the fact that we want to put more money into training so that we can get young people trained up to work in hospitality or as nurses in aged care where there are shortages and…
TOM TILLEY:
…but will that really apply across the board when you've taken over 200 professions off the list of skills?
PETER DUTTON:
Well as I say, we've gone through and had a look at the skills. So for example, under the old arrangement, there were 651 industry or job classifications, we've reduced that down by just over 200 and we have had a look at where there's been demand, we have had a look at where we think there's problems. The Department of Employment advise us where they think there is already a supply of Australian workers and it's deemed unnecessary to have that particular classification there.
So there's a lot of science that goes behind what industry skills or what jobs are listed and those that are cut from the list, and as I say, in Colin's scenario, if you can't fill the positions with Australian workers – which is what I want to happen, I want more training to take place, I want more people to get into that industry because what we want to do, as we're doing now, is we want to export our chefs across to other parts of the world so that they can bring those skills back to restaurants and establishments here in Australia – so it's incredibly important.
TOM TILLEY:
Yeah okay. Alright. We'll keep moving. Colin, thank you so much for joining us. I'm not sure how much hope that gave you, but obviously you'll be keeping…
COLIN FASSNIDGE:
Not a lot Tom.
TOM TILLEY:
…a close eye on this.
Peter Dutton, it was great to have you on the show on the day of making this announcement here, taking our questions, thank you so much for joining us.
PETER DUTTON:
A pleasure mate. Thanks for having us.
[ends]
