Subjects: Closure of Manus RPC; US resettlement; foreign fighters; same-sex marriage.
E&EO…………………………………
NEIL MITCHELL:
Minister good morning.
PETER DUTTON:
Good morning Neil.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Papua New Guinea authorities are talking about using force to move these men out. Will Australia support that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well our preference is- very strong preference is that people move of their own accord and we've seen over the course of the last few days now in excess of 100 people who have taken a decision to move out. But as Annie points out, we've got a group of core agitators of organisers who I think will try and provide some sort of scene where there is a confrontation with police; they'll do that because they want that footage broadcast back here. Ultimately, as we know, they want to come to Australia and we've been very clear that we're not going to allow people to settle in Australia.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But is it getting to the stage where force is inevitable?
PETER DUTTON:
Well I hope not. Just to take a step back, I mean there's some images around today of some of the accommodation up on Manus. Can I provide an assurance that, firstly, people have done a great deal of damage it seems to me by some of the photos. They've trashed the accommodation and as was pointed out there's new accommodation purpose built, it's been open for a couple of years, people have known for months that this end date was coming up and really, the conditions we see in the photographs today don't resemble at all the conditions in which people have been living over a long period of time.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But you don't doubt that those are the conditions they're in, that the conditions aren't staged, are they?
PETER DUTTON:
So let's just look at the facts here Neil. So this is like having a tenant in a house, you've built a new house for the tenant and you've said we want you to move in six months time into the new house because we're going to demolish the old house. We're cutting off water and power to the old house and we're paying for you to go to the new house, we're going to provide you with meals, with all of the security and medical needs you could need and people are saying: well no, I'm not going to leave the old house, I'm going to stay here, trash the place and then put images out of that. That's what's happened here.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But it must still be dangerous for them?
PETER DUTTON:
Well it is and this is why we've – I mean we've run buses, we've provided information and as I say 100 people-plus have already decided to leave of their own accord. We've got a purpose built facility which is expensive, some $10 million or so that Australian taxpayers have put into it. And the point that they're trying to make here is that they want to come to Australia and that's been their stance all along. They've been told by GetUp! and the Greens and others [indistinct] …
NEIL MITCHELL:
[Indistinct].
PETER DUTTON:
You and I have spoken about this before where the advocates have been messaging over a long period of time that if you leave that centre you will lose leverage in your bid to come to Australia. And we've been very clear, we'll provide support to people that have been found not to be refugees to go back to their country of origin.
I didn't put one person on Manus, but my job is to clean the mess up that I've inherited and I'm not going to do it in a way that will see boats restart and I've been very clear about it.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So what are the options for these men? They stay in Papua New Guinea, they return to their place of origin, or they become part of the American solution?
PETER DUTTON:
Well some of them will be open to go to the United States and the first 54 people have already gone to the US. The deal with President Obama now honoured by President Trump is that about 1250 people in total will go so we would expect another uplift shortly. And for some people under the arrangement that Mr Rudd arrived at with Mr O'Neil at the time, if people were found to be refugees then they could settle in PNG.
So we're talking about two groups of people here, people that have been found to be refugees and those that have been found not to be refugees and the people that aren't refugees know that they're not going to the United States, they're not coming to Australia and they're trying to leverage as best they can and these are the hardest cases where they are trying to put support into their cause and try and put pressure on us to come to Australia.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Under no circumstances will any of these people be allowed to come to Australia?
PETER DUTTON:
Under no circumstance, no, because all of the intelligence that I see Neil – and there's chatter at the moment up in Indonesia and elsewhere that says people are watching this very closely and their view is that if they can hold it out on Manus or Nauru for a couple of years and then come to Australia – that's worth paying the people smugglers for. I've not had a death at sea, I've not had a boat in three years that successfully arrived and we've had the biggest offshore intake of refugees since 1983. So we're compassionate in the number of refugees that we bring here but we aren't going to be stood over by people that have better accommodation to move to but are trashing their current accommodation in an attempt to try and twist our arm to get to Australia.
NEIL MITCHELL:
We'll take a call for the Immigration Minister Peter Dutton. Yes Peter, go ahead please.
CALLER PETER:
Yeah hi Minister, I agree with you 100 per cent. Stick to your guns. We can't just let anyone in to the country. They came illegally and you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I mean you want to help them but they don't want to leave. So, I support you 100 per cent.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Peter, I appreciate it. You know the point too is that if you have a look at what's happening in the world elsewhere, I mean there are a million people that have moved into Germany, there are 65 million displaced people at the moment and we do have a generous refugee programme and there are people that you would want to provide assistance to up on Manus at the moment, but there are others who have been involved in crimes and some of those crimes have been reported. They've been involved in activities now where they're trashing the accommodation. They are trying to put images out that don't represent their living conditions as of only a few weeks ago. But we've been clear, we've got new better accommodation for people to go to, the refugees to go to, and there's another purpose built accommodation that's available to the non-refugees that they will go to. But in the end they've been told by Nick McKim and Greens and others that if they stay there and make out that they've been harshly treated somehow that will result in the Government changing its mind and we won't.
NEIL MITCHELL:
I was speaking to a former guard earlier this week. We called him Tom, which isn't his real name, but despite reports today we do know his real name. We do have detail of his bona fides. This is some of what he said to me.
[excerpt]
TOM:There's been numerous assaults, recently- this year there was a senior doctor had a garbage bag bin liner put over her head from a refugee. That refugee was restrained and charged accordingly by the Papua New Guinea police. Down the track when the doctor went to court, there was no- police didn't show up, and the evidence went missing.
[end of excerpt]
NEIL MITCHELL:
Minister, are you aware of that case?
PETER DUTTON:
I am aware of that case and I can't talk to the aspects around the corruption or those allegations because I just don't have any information on that, but in terms of the assault on the individual staff member, that is a verified circumstance and it's concerning. And it's not the only case …
NEIL MITCHELL:
…is she okay?
PETER DUTTON:
I don't have information about where she is as of today. There's a lot of support that's provided through the organisations that we subcontract to. So IHMS provide medical services to us and they obviously have a duty of care to their employees, but it's a difficult environment and there is tension between some of the people within the RPC and some people living out in the Manus community. There's no question.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, we'll get to that. Tom said that some of the asylum seekers were in fact provoking the local community by threatening to rape their wives and children; are you aware of that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well again, I am, and there's a lot of…
NEIL MITCHELL:
…that's true?
PETER DUTTON:
That is true, and it's, again, a regrettable circumstance. But that's the other side of this story Neil, and I think …
NEIL MITCHELL:
…and drug taking? He said use of cannabis was common.
PETER DUTTON:
Correct. There's – to put it in perspective, just so that people have the right image in their mind – this is not a jail facility. This is an open arrangement. So, for example, about nine busloads of people from the Regional Processing Centre each day – about 190 people in total – will go down to Lorengau, to the village. They'll go down, purchase goods from the markets, they stay at the beach, go to the beach, they sell things down there. Obviously, if they're minded to buy drugs or sell drugs, then that's an activity that some are involved in as well.
NEIL MITCHELL:
….what is it- what, selling drugs?
PETER DUTTON:
Some people are- again, Neil…
NEIL MITCHELL:
….where are they growing it?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, there's opportunity to grow on Manus in some circumstances and there are corrupt elements, all the rest of it, and that's the ingredients up there. But the point is that people come and go freely from the centre now and this talk that they're scared to leave the centre is a complete nonsense because almost 200 people a day leave the centre, go down to the local community. Some of them are involved in relationships with people, with locals. There's a whole dynamic to it.
NEIL MITCHELL:
I can understand you saying that you're drawing a line because you're trying to break the people smuggling model, but is there an issue here that these people - you don't want these people in Australia?
PETER DUTTON:
In some cases, that's absolutely correct. In some cases we're aware of the sort of circumstances that you spoke about before with the guard, where we're concerned about some of the allegations involving underage minors within the Manus community as well. All of …
NEIL MITCHELL:
….what, attacks on minors?
PETER DUTTON:
Involved alleged sexual assaults and the rest. That's the reality of what we're dealing with.
NEIL MITCHELL:
….anybody ever convicted of those?
PETER DUTTON:
Not that I'm aware of. I think there are a couple of cases that are being investigated by the police at the moment, and this is, as I say, it's a situation that we want to move people into better accommodation. And the fact that you've got GetUp! running this campaign at the moment for their own political purposes – they're using these people, they're spoiling for a fight – and I want people to move peacefully from the Regional Processing Centre into the new centre arrangements.
NEIL MITCHELL:
If you move people, if they do move out and go to other accommodation, will we be paying them a wage?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes. And there's a …
NEIL MITCHELL:
….so we're paying people who are threatening people, attacking people and buying and selling drugs a wage?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, again, we've spoken about this before Neil. In total this is costing us $1.9 billion a year to manage the 50,000 people that arrived – the balance of those people that arrived – on the 800 boats and that legacy is going to go on for some time.
And this is why when the intelligence agency heads and the head of Operations Sovereign Borders says to me that if you bring people from Manus Island and put them in Australia, or if you allow them to go to New Zealand, the people smugglers will be out there targeting their message again and I don't want new arrivals filling up the vacancies that we're creating.
NEIL MITCHELL:
What's the wage we pay them?
PETER DUTTON:
It's not a great deal of money, but we provide – in the Regional Processing Centre – three meals a day. In the new processing centre, at Lorengau, we want to provide the food but ask people to make their own meals. Now, they're objecting to that. There's a new medical centre that's being provided, there's, as I say, transport that's available to go down to the local markets et cetera.
NEIL MITCHELL:
…do you know off the top what the wage is?
PETER DUTTON:
It's in the order of $20-odd Ray, so it's…
NEIL MITCHELL:
…Neil.
PETER DUTTON:
Neil, I'm sorry. So, it's not…
NEIL MITCHELL:
$20 a day?
PETER DUTTON:
No, no. So a week I think. It depends on the circumstances, whether they're a refugee or not and some of the services are provided free of charge. They have money coming in, in some cases, from overseas. There's a whole lot of support around them so Neil that is the situation.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Don't confuse me with Ray, he'll tell me to stick my head up my bum again.
PETER DUTTON:
I'm sorry mate, I'm sorry. No, I understand the dynamic. I don't want to add to it.
NEIL MITCHELL:
More in a moment from the Minister, more calls.
[Ad break]
NEIL MITCHELL:
The Minister for Immigration is with me. I want to move on from Manus in a moment, but Minister, apart from paying them a wage, if the people – asylum seekers, refugees – agree to go back to the point of origin, we actually pay them to do that, don't we?
PETER DUTTON:
In some cases we have and Neil …
NEIL MITCHELL:
…how much?
PETER DUTTON:
Look, I don't speculate publicly on it, but it's in the order of some tens of thousands because ultimately that's cheaper than us providing support to PNG to house these people there. And look, many people have taken that option and gone back, but if you have somebody from- sought to come here by boat from say Sri Lanka or
Vietnam, they know that there is an end point at some stage that they can be returned voluntarily or not.
The same as if we've got a student who's overstayed, refuses to go back to the United Kingdom, we can forcibly return that person because we have an arrangement with the UK.
If they're from Iran, the Iranians refuse to issue travel documents at all. So the Iranians, for example, up on Manus are able to say: well look, I know that you're not going to send me back to, and that you can't send me back to Iran and this gives them more leverage if you like in their argument.
NEIL MITCHELL:
The US, I think you said, have accepted 50-odd people?
PETER DUTTON:
Fifty-four so far.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Fifty-four. Have they rejected any on security grounds?
PETER DUTTON:
No, but they will reject some. Tthey will go through and hand down negative hand-downs, so we would expect that at some point.
NEIL MITCHELL:
…and what happens to those people if they're rejected on security grounds?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, in that case – under the arrangement struck by the Labor Party with Prime Minister O'Neil – if they're refugees, they can stay in PNG, they can settle in PNG. That's the arrangement. If they're not refugees, then they're illegally in
PNG and they're expected to go back to their country.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Okay. Is this issue now under the control of the Papua New Guinean Government or the Australian Government?
PETER DUTTON:
Under the PNG Government.
NEIL MITCHELL:
…I assume they consult though, do they?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, clearly they've got – under the arrangement – responsibility for…it's in their country, they have sovereignty over the arrangements there, but we provide financial support obviously.
NEIL MITCHELL:
But if they move in, as they are saying, they're running out of patience. Within a couple of days they could use force to move these men. Do they seek our approval first?
PETER DUTTON:
They don't seek our approval, but certainly we're in discussion with them about what their steps would be and we've made it very clear we don't want to see any violence. We want to see people moved voluntarily…
NEIL MITCHELL:
…so that wouldn't involve Australian personnel?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, we don't have police, we don't have Federal Police involved. There's no legal capacity for us to have that sort of workforce up there.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Hello, Glen. Go ahead please. Ah, Glen's dropped out. Robert, go ahead please, Robert.
CALLER ROBERT:
Good morning gentleman. My question for the Minister is regarding the secrecy that's been around Manus Island and the negative public image that then gets made in light of that. Is there any move to increase transparency in the new facility and hopefully sometimes play down that negative image that sometimes makes it into the press?
PETER DUTTON:
Robert, it's a good question mate. I mean, we've put out information regularly over the course of the last couple of weeks. We've provided footage and still shots of the new accommodation. I've got to say, most of the media haven't picked that up or run with it. I think we'll put out some imagery of the centre in its pre-condition, as opposed to the way in which it's been trashed now and the propaganda that's out
there through GetUp! and others to make people believe that somehow, individuals have been living in this circumstance …
NEIL MITCHELL:
…but it's also important to show what's available now in the new facility and whether it's up to scratch.
PETER DUTTON:
Yes, yes. Well, as I say- yeah, no. And as I say, we've put that imagery out over the course of the last couple of weeks. I'm hoping now that some of the news outlets can pick that up.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Hello, Ben. Go ahead.
CALLER BEN:
Yeah g'day guys. Sounds like you've dodged the question on the wage there a little bit Peter.
PETER DUTTON:
On the what, sorry, mate?
NEIL MITCHELL:
The wage.
PETER DUTTON:
On the wage.
CALLER BEN:
On the wage that's paid to refugees. Is it $20 a week, or $20 an hour?
PETER DUTTON:
No mate, a week and I just haven't got those figures in front of me. And as I say, it differs across whether you're a refugee or not in terms of the support. I just haven't got the paperwork in front of me, but I'll get the …
NEIL MITCHELL:
….you're saying it's around $20 a week. Okay. Simon, hello Simon.
CALLER SIMON:
Hey Peter. I think you're a legend mate and I'm not going to vote Liberal for the first time in my life. I'm 44, and I have every other election, but I wouldn't touch Malcolm Turnbull with a barge pole. You should have a crack at it and do not change when you get in there. Even if you lose, stick to your guns and you know what, you might be surprised. You might just win.
PETER DUTTON:
Well mate, thank you for the rap. I'll …
NEIL MITCHELL:
Convince him to vote for Malcolm Turnbull.
PETER DUTTON:
Please, please do mate.
NEIL MITCHELL:
…no, that's a plea, convince him.
CALLER SIMON:
No. No way, no way in the world.
PETER DUTTON:
The alternative is Bill Shorten and believe me I've seen this guy in action. He's not..
NEIL MITCHELL:
…well, that's measles or chickenpox.
PETER DUTTON:
He's not the real deal. I promise you …
CALLER SIMON:
[Indistinct] It's terrible. Never been worse.
PETER DUTTON:
As Rudd and Gillard did, especially in this area mate. But ...
NEIL MITCHELL:
…but hang on, you're arguing now measles and chickenpox. What about convincing him to vote for Malcolm Turnbull because he's the right man to be Prime Minister?
PETER DUTTON:
And I believe that because I serve in Malcolm's Cabinet. As I said, if I was going to be disloyal, I wouldn't be in his Cabinet.
And we've got a lot of runs on the board at the moment mate, it's hard to get much of that clean air up in terms of the achievements that we've got because the difficulty is we've got citizenship and other issues around.
But for me at the moment, I've got to stand firm because I believe it's in our national interest and we make tough decisions in this portfolio. But in the end, I don't want to see women and kids drowning at sea and we've closed 17 detention centres here and I'm just not going to return to the days that Labor presided over.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Do you agree the citizenship mess though is distracting government?
PETER DUTTON:
Of course it is. It's distracting all sorts of debate and in the news packages of the night time. You want them to be reporting the achievements of the Government, what the Prime Minister's achieved, or what I've been able to achieve in my portfolio. You don't want it filled with speculation around this citizenship issue and I think most people want us to move on from that, but that's the reality of the current debate. We deal with it, we move on and I hope we can get some good stories up.
NEIL MITCHELL:
It's reported today that two Australians fighting for ISIS have been killed. They have- such reports have come out in the past and been false. Have you got any information on it?
PETER DUTTON:
I haven't got anything that I can publicly release, but obviously we're involved with our partners over there in trying to kill people who are involved in preparing terrorist attacks and we are worried about some people that might want to come back, given the threat that they would pose if they return.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Well, Julie Bishop said a couple of weeks ago that there are at least 40 former fighters on the streets of Australia. That must be a concern? There's two in custody, 40 wandering around.
PETER DUTTON:
It is. It's a big concern and it's a …
NEIL MITCHELL:
…so why aren't they in jail?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, if they're Australian citizens then they have the same constitutional rights, the same legislative rights as somebody who's born here and...
NEIL MITCHELL:
…but they've been fighting for a foreign power, surely they – if they've been fighting for ISIS and we can prove it, surely they can go to jail?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, there's the catch; if you can prove it. I mean, it's hard to gather evidence in a theatre of war Neil. That's the reality. You can't gather up evidence that you would at a crime scene here and that's the difficulty that we've got. Our effort over there is concentrated on trying to destroy ISIL and be a part of that coalition effort. It's very difficult to collect evidence to satisfy a court here beyond reasonable doubt, so that's the reality of war.
NEIL MITCHELL:
ASIO head Duncan Lewis said, back in May, some of these people will have greatly enhanced capability to undertake terrorist attacks. Is that right? That means they're a risk out there now.
PETER DUTTON:
Yes it is and the work that ASIO's doing with the Australian Federal Police, the Victorian Police, other agencies, it's 24-7 and we will arrest and prosecute people if we need to. There are 76 that have been charged with terrorist-related offences in the last three years compared to six for the entire period before that, so this is a huge threat and this is why we need to make sure that our borders are secure, that we can stop people. We offload people from getting onto planes on a regular basis because we're worried about the threat that they would pose. This work is ongoing.
NEIL MITCHELL:
We've just got a message from your office and we thank them for this. The refugees get $280 kina a fortnight, which is about $100 a fortnight. Non-refugees don't get a stipend, they get everything- meals, but they don't get any money. So, refugees are getting about $50 a week.
PETER DUTTON:
That's correct. I was out of my $20 I'm sorry, but thank you to my office for providing that.
NEIL MITCHELL:
…I understand. Now, and finally, the result comes in on the same-sex marriage next week. You have been an opponent, but I think you are expecting a yes vote, aren't you?
PETER DUTTON:
That's my sense. I've said at a personal level I've voted no, but if the majority of Australians support a change to the law, then I'll vote for that change in Parliament. And the reason for that is that I advocated very strongly for a postal plebiscite because I wanted people to have their say, yes or no, and having promoted that democratic process I will honour the outcome of it.
NEIL MITCHELL:
So would you look at or support an alternative Bill?
PETER DUTTON:
There's work going on at the moment around whether or not you could amend a bill or another bill being drafted. I think all of that process will play out, as it has done - I've been in Parliament 16 years, I've seen it a few times where a private members bill comes in - people will move amendments, there'll be I think a plethora of amendments. Some will get up, some won't, and then the bill will be dealt with by the end of Christmas if there is a yes vote.
NEIL MITCHELL:
What if it's tight vote? I mean, what sort of strength does a yes vote need to be acceptable?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, in an election it's 50 per cent plus one vote. That's the reality. But look, I think it's great that 12 million people have voted – near 80 per cent turnout which is pretty phenomenal – and people were critical of the process, but I thought it was important for millions of people to have their say either way. I think it gives greater legitimacy to the change in the law, if it's to be changed, and it's been done in a respectful way. I think that's been important.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Look, thank you for coming in. You're not going down to the Customs House, are you? There's a barricade down there at the Australian Border Force headquarters.
PETER DUTTON:
Neil, I won't. Thank you for the kind offer, but sure the police will take care of it and no doubt inspired by GetUp!. People should have a look at …
NEIL MITCHELL:
…gee you're after GetUp! today.
PETER DUTTON:
People should have a look at GetUp!. I mean, this is…
NEIL MITCHELL:
…but your people have been meeting with them.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, not me, I can assure you of that. So they get millions of dollars from the union movement and from the Greens and elsewhere. They're a front for the Labor Party and the Greens, they're nothing more than a political party in drag and they should be called out for it.
NEIL MITCHELL:
A political party in drag?
PETER DUTTON:
And it's pretty scant drag too, I might say.
NEIL MITCHELL:
Thank you for coming in.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks mate.