Subjects: Lindt Café siege report; national security; ABC Q&A programme; Yassmin Abdel-Magied; deadline for IMAs to lodge protection claims; Johnathan Thurston – State of Origin.
E&EO…………………………………………………………………………………………..
RAY HADLEY:
We speak every Thursday, or attempt to, the Immigration Minister Peter Dutton. He's in our Canberra studio. Minister, good morning to you.
PETER DUTTON:
Good morning Ray.
RAY HADLEY:
We've had almost 24 hours to digest the findings from the NSW Coroner regarding the Lindt siege. I've declared – both yesterday and again today – that I think the Coroner Michael Barnes has made an outstanding festival of this. He in his opening statement said only one person could be held accountable for the murders of two innocent people; the terrorist Man Monis.
PETER DUTTON:
Well that's a common sense approach. Michael Barnes spent some time up in Queensland – so I've seen some of his work in the past and he's a pretty impressive guy – and I think that he's demonstrated that through this hearing as well.
It's a difficult scenario isn't it? I mean had the police rushed in – there were suggestions I recall watching the footage at the time, that in Man Monis' backpack there may have been some explosive device; that had it blown the place up, the police would have been asked why did you rush in? So it's hard to put yourself in that position. But those guys that rush in, into danger – as we've seen in Manchester – you've got people fleeing understandably running from danger and you've got the first responders running into the line of the fire; it's hard not to be admirable for what they do and I think it's pretty hard to be critical of some tough decisions that they need to make on the ground.
RAY HADLEY:
Then we get to Manchester, which preceded the results of the Coroner's Inquest in to Lindt Café – 22 people killed including children one as young as eight – it doesn't get much more cowardly than this, but it brings me to the point I made in the opener – and there's an interview by John Lyons with Nick Kaldas in Jordan this morning, saying well perhaps it is time that we started to do things a bit differently here.
There has been a reluctance in Australia previously to have heavily armed officers at venues, particularly with longarms, but surely that must change?
PETER DUTTON:
It's an issue for the Police Commissioners, both at a federal level and at a state-by-state level, but it seems inevitable when you look at the reaction of police agencies elsewhere around the world, it's a very different scenario today – and I think Michael Barnes pointed this out in terms of these siege situations – traditionally it had always been the case where there was a domestic siege, for example, it was to cordon and to negotiate. That's not the modern reality. If you've got a terrorist who is executing people one-by-one in a hostage situation, then police do need to breach it and they need the proper weapons and accoutrement's to go with it to be effective.
The Commissioners are no doubt contemplating all of that now. There's a lot to learn from the inquiry and the great thing is that we've got such a good relationship with the UK and the US. We hear from them after each of these incidents, have a look at the reports, the assessments that are being done and we learn from the mistakes that have been made and what has worked. So again, there is a very good relationship there which I think serves us well.
RAY HADLEY:
I know you deflect when I do raise this issue about homeland security and a minister to oversee that and maybe a commissioner, director general, someone in charge, an inspector, but surely we move closer to it day-by-day. You said last time I raised it; it's a call for the Prime Minister. Surely discussions between Cabinet and the Prime Minister must intensify in light of what has happened internationally.
PETER DUTTON:
Well Ray as I said to you last time I think, the Prime Minister looks at all of these matters. I was with him this morning; we had the National Security Committee meet the night before last and took advice from all of the agencies there. There's a lot of information to distil, a lot of decisions to be made and as I've said before – and I say it sincerely – the Prime Minister will make whatever decision he needs to, to act in the national interest. He's seized of these issues. He's in close contact with the intelligence agency and the law enforcement agency Heads. We receive information on a daily basis. He's obviously got a very good relationship with the Premiers – and as Michael Keenan does with the Police Ministers as well – so all of that continues, but if there are to be changes, then they will be made on the basis that it's in our national interest, but that's a decision in due course for the PM.
RAY HADLEY:
Now, more than 3,000 jihadis are in the UK. Many of them have returned from the Middle East. In an email, which quantifies what most people think, this one from the North Coast, Urunga; I don't understand why we have to let these ISIS fighters back, even if they are citizens, can't we simply tear up their passports, leave them stranded?
I mean they've got a much more significant problem in the UK because of the location of the Middle East in relation to the UK, but where are we up to with all of this? I mean the left hand the left-wing hand-wringers are saying; oh you know you can't do this, you can't do that. I mean what, we bring them back here so they can blow us up?
PETER DUTTON:
Well we've got to act within the law. I mean that's the first principle…
RAY HADLEY
…oh bugger the law Peter, bugger the law.
PETER DUTTON:
Well…
RAY HADLEY:
…I mean really, at the end of the day, we let them back here and they come back and kill us.
PETER DUTTON:
Ray, the best outcome is for those who make a decision to go across and fight in Syria, is that they're killed over there and they don't come back. They don't annoy anyone again. They get the fate, frankly, they deserve. That's my starting position. But we can't act here against the Constitution because it would be ruled out by the High Court and people can roll their eyes and talk about the legal niceties – that's the reality – we've got to work within the Constitution and Australian citizens have rights under the Constitution to return.
Now, we cancel passports – Julie Bishop has done that on a record number of occasions – we take away travel documents, we can stop people, delay people – there is a lot of work that goes on between the agencies in relation to any of these matters, as you would expect – and we work on the advice of the police.
The Prime Minister's worked up what I think is a very important piece of legislation, that is that like with the sex offenders…sex offender laws or those people that are likely to reoffend, can be kept in detention, in jail, after their jail term of incarceration has finished. So there are different ways in which we can deal with each of these people. But the point I'd make is that our authorities here have thwarted 12 attempts, so far, at terrorist activity.
Obviously we're reflecting on the Man Monis one at the moment, working out the lessons there, looking at Manchester and elsewhere around the world to see what we can learn from those experiences as well, but it is about trying to get the right balance. I can't pretend to you that I could act as a Minister…that I can act outside of the law or illegally.
RAY HADLEY:
Yeah I know that, but you talk about the Constitution. When it was framed, the Constitution in the late part of 1800's, early 1900's into 1901 and federation, the founding fathers didn't know about ISIS, they didn't know about the sort of criminality we'd encounter over the past 10 or 12 years and surely, with the cooperation of others, we've got to look at homeland security and safety; allowing for the Constitution that it was framed when these things were not pertinent.
PETER DUTTON:
Well I mean my responsibility, the responsibility of all of us in leadership in the national security space, is to keep Australians safe and we do that by securing our borders, by cancelling visas, deporting people, stopping people from returning, working with our allies in the Middle East and as I say, the best possible outcome here is if you've gone across to fight, you are killed in the theatre of war over there. That's the outcome that you can expect. It's the outcome that you deserve and Australia is a safer place for you not returning here.
But we have good relationships between the Federal Police and the State policing agencies and there is a lot of work that goes on that the public doesn't see in relation to managing all of these issues and I think we should be reassured by that.
I'd love to say to you look; we can stop these people at the border and stop them from coming back. I've cancelled Australian citizenship of one individual recently and we're looking at others at the moment. Again, if we can tighten the law we will, but we've got to do it so that when it's tested in the courts it can stand up.
RAY HADLEY:
Okay. Just so your blood pressure doesn't go up, I'll pre-warn you; the programme you and I don't watch Q&A had a panel of academics highlighted by a man named Lawrence Krauss and then an appalling comment by the host. I'll let you listen to exactly what was said on Q&A.
[excerpt]
LAWRENCE KRAUSS:
We have this view that it's a huge threat for most American…even, in almost every country, the likelihood of being killed by a terrorist; the real people who are in danger from Muslim terrorists are in the Muslim countries.
You're more likely to be killed by a refrigerator in the United States falling on you.
TONY JONES:
Now, I'll bring in our other panellist, I mean I suppose if you're a young black American, you're more likely to be killed by a policeman.
[end of excerpt]
RAY HADLEY:
That was Jones. The bloke before him, I've never heard of, I don't want to hear from him again; Lawrence Krauss. This was before Manchester obviously, it was on Monday night into Tuesday morning and the timing was appalling, but Krauss is some sort of academic from somewhere in the United States of America and if you could cancel his visa it'd be handy anyway, but not much you can do about him, but it's just typical of the crap we get on the ABC.
PETER DUTTON:
Well Ray, it's a cultural problem at the ABC and the board needs to deal with it. Tony Jones, who is obviously a well-credentialed experienced journalist, I mean his behaviour in that instance, I think is a disgrace and you can muse about it and carry on; the reality is, as we're seeing now, victims as young as eight, those families who have allowed their children, young children, teenage children to go to a music concert as all of us have done over a long period of time – travel out to a public place, go on a bus, go on a train whatever it might be – those people, those victims of that crime and those families that are left behind, frankly, I think they're the people and they're voices should be heard, not the voices of some academics or people that seek to get their face on Q&A.
I actually think that there is a fundamental problem with the ABC, particularly around Q&A, the composition of the audience, the selection of these people on the panel and the direction that's given it by Tony Jones – and so you're right, you've raised by blood pressure so I didn't watch it…
RAY HADLEY:
Well I'll…
PETER DUTTON:
…I don't watch it and…
RAY HADLEY:
…no I don't either…
PETER DUTTON:
…and honestly, it is a waste of taxpayers' money.
RAY HADLEY:
Well your blood pressure will come down now. Yassmin Abdel-Magied has got the punt, she went flying between the uprights yesterday. We won't be seeing her on TV, on the ABC in the future.
PETER DUTTON:
Well that's a good start. One down, many to go.
RAY HADLEY:
The 650 boat people who have applied for asylum in Australia in just two weeks after that October one deadline, then we've got the number of those living in Australia who've yet to lodge an asylum claim down to 7,194; of that there's 2,800 Iranian, 1,100 stateless – whatever that means – 991 Sri Lankan and 403 Afghans. What do we do with all of these people collectively?
PETER DUTTON:
Well we've been very clear and that is that if you don't submit your application you're going to have your visa cancelled and be deported. There are thousands of people that can make the claim each year, they can fill out the form, they can answer the questions, they can provide the information around their identity etc. There is this group of 7,500 people; they're claiming welfare and I've said if you don't submit your forms by the 1st of October, then you're off welfare and that's the reality.
As we said last week, I mean this is costing us $1.9 billion a year this Legacy Caseload, the people left over from the 50,000 arrived on the 800 boats and the meter is still ticking. This is going to cost us a lot of money. It's cost us $14 billion since 2008-09 and we're going into winter where we'll have elderly people across the country who can't afford to turn on their heaters and we're wasting money on people who are pretending to be refugees when they're not – they're economic migrants.
We're generous, we give support to a lot of people through the welfare system who call Australia home and we provide support to those people who are genuine refugees, but we are not going to be taken for a ride and we aren't going to be paying money to people who don't have a legitimate claim to make. If they can't get their forms in after a couple of years or however long it's been – we've spent a lot of money interacting with them, asking people to come in for interviews and they reject any of it – well, I'm sorry, as I've said – and we will not be deviating from this – but the 1st October is the deadline and people will need to abide by it or is there a consequence as a result of their inaction.
RAY HADLEY:
I don't want to upset you again as a proud Queenslander, but I've just been passed a note: Johnathan Thurston has now ruled himself out of the opening match this Wednesday night.
PETER DUTTON:
Oh geez.
RAY HADLEY:
He says I'm devastated I won't be playing next week, but the call needed to be made, it's the right decision for the team and he wants to wish Anthony Milford all the best. He's going to stay in camp with the team obviously, but he's actually taken the decision today in light of the controversy between his coach and the Broncos coach and said look; I know [inaudible] playing, so I'll rule myself out now.
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah, well that's a rough outcome mate. He's…
RAY HADLEY:
…well if he plays, you win.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, yeah, that's right.
RAY HADLEY:
If Johnathan Thurston plays for New South Wales, they win. If he plays for Queensland, they win. It's as simple as that.
PETER DUTTON:
Generally if New South Wales plays, we win as well though…
RAY HADLEY:
On that particular note, I'll leave you there. Thank you very much.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Ray.
RAY HADLEY:
I might see you next Wednesday night up there.
PETER DUTTON:
Alright.
RAY HADLEY:
Are you coming to the match?
PETER DUTTON:
No, we're sitting through game one and two so…
RAY HADLEY:
…oh, you'll have to listen to the Continuous Call Team
PETER DUTTON:
That's it.
RAY HADLEY:
On 2CC in Canberra.
PETER DUTTON:
It should be played across every household.
RAY HADLEY:
Alright, see you later, bye bye.
[ends]
