Subjects: Melbourne terror attack.
EO&E...........................................................................................................................................
PETER DUTTON:
Ladies and gentlemen thank you very much for being here. I wanted to provide an update to you – obviously the Prime Minister provided an update yesterday – there's been warrant activity and investigations as you'd expect conducted by the AFP and by the Victorian Police, ASIO and other agencies over the course of the weekend.
The operation now moves into a different phase. Obviously there's been an amount of forensic activity and examination, but that will continue now for some time, including examination of phones and devices seized during the course of the execution of some of the warrants. So those operational matters will continue now. That obviously takes a longer period of time as you would expect as the police will put together their report for the coroner, put together their picture about the movements of this individual before the activity in the run-up to the incident in Melbourne on Friday and other people of interest – family members etc. – will be or have been part of that discovery process. So all of that will continue on and obviously if anybody has any information we'd encourage them please to provide that to the police, either through the Crime Stoppers hotline or through the National Security Hotline.
As the Prime Minister said yesterday, we do face a significant threat from people who are extremists, people who are involved in activities to try and kill Australians. We've seen 14 attempted attacks that have now been stopped by our intelligence and law enforcement agencies. In some of those cases, the events haven't resulted in a loss of life because of great police work or intelligence work by ASIO or other law enforcement or intelligence agencies.
In some cases, in seven cases, people have got through. People have committed acts and Australians have died as a result of their actions, as we saw in Melbourne on Friday.
In some of the 14 where we have been able to stop that coming to fruition, it's been because not just of that good police work or good intelligence work, but because of tip-offs from the community: whether it's somebody attending a mosque, whether it's somebody as part of a family group, somebody providing a government service that has their interest piqued about the activities of a particular person that they are engaging with and that evidence or that tip off has led to a disruption and that person hasn't been successful in committing a terrorist act.
So my plea today – given that on the advice of the Director-General of ASIO Duncan Lewis, that they now have 400 plus investigations and people of interest – my plea is to people within, particularly the Islamic community, but across society otherwise, that if you have information, if you see the behaviour of an individual or family member, somebody in a workplace that causes you concern, provide that information because it may lead to somebody not going to Bourke Street Mall or not committing an offence that results in the loss of life.
The fact is that many people – particularly where there is a low level of sophistication, where you have somebody that can be grabbing a knife from a kitchen drawer, picking up a couple of gas bottles from a service station or from Bunnings on the way to commit an act – it's impossible for authorities to cover every one of those circumstances. And so that's why it's important for people to provide information as soon as possible so that we can try and stop any of these attacks taking place.
I'm happy to take any questions.
QUESTION:
Given this man's history and the fact he was known to spy agencies so well and the fact that they had taken steps to remove his passport because he tried to go to Syria, how is he one of the 14 that got through under your watch?
PETER DUTTON:
Well police didn't have any intelligence in relation to this person that he was about to commit an act. Now as I say there are 400 plus….we're worried about foreign fighters coming back from overseas. Fortunately over 100 now have been killed in the Middle East in Syria and Iraq and that's a good outcome because they don't come back to our country. But the reality is that where you've got a low level of sophistication and there's not intelligence or information available that the person is about to commit an act, and where you're talking about 400 plus investigations as the Director-General has signalled, it's very hard – as the Australian Federal Police and as the Victorian Police, New South Wales, Queensland Police etc. have said over a long period of time – this is the threat where you're talking about soft targets, a low level of sophistication, an individual acting with rudimentary tools including a knife or a box-cutter; those sorts of realities face us and we need to accept that.
But I have nothing but praise for the police, for the judgments that they make, for the intelligence agencies. There are a lot of experts out there, but as we saw in the Bourke Street Mall on Friday police need to make split second decisions. They need to make tough calls, not just in the vision that we saw, but decisions they have to make behind the scenes as well about where they allocate their resources, where they've got coverage of particular people and intelligence that they've got that they can act on or evidence that they can collate to try and prosecute someone.
So these are all complex matters and we do face a significant threat, but we need all the members of the community that might have information to step up so that we can supplement the information or the intelligence that we've got.
QUESTION:
What do we know about the attacker? We know that he has some links to terrorist groups. Has this guy ever been brought in for questioning? Has he ever been alleged to or suspected of being involved in any sort of plot?
PETER DUTTON:
Well a couple a couple of questions there Michael. So firstly yes, he has been spoken to certainly by ASIO and by other agencies as I understand before. He had his passport cancelled in 2015 and there was no evidence available to the police, as I'm advised, or to ASIO that any attack was imminent or that he had been part of any planning.
Just in relation to his connections with ISIL or with any terrorist group, the advice that I've got is that – and again this is very early in the investigation and all of the information has been collated as a result of the search warrant activity and the inquiries otherwise by the police and intelligence agencies – but there's not, as I'm advised, a membership of an organization or a definite linked to ISIL. It's more, at least the working theory is at the moment, a case where this person has been downloading information or receiving, you know, messages in his own mind about what he should be doing. So that's….it's an inspire, as opposed to affiliation or to a membership.
QUESTION:
Why was his passport withdrawn and was [inaudible]…
PETER DUTTON:
So that was still current and that was based on information as a result of the interviews or information that ASIO would have had at the time that they took the decision.
QUESTION:
Why wasn't he being monitored then?
PETER DUTTON:
Well again because the agencies, like they do with the 400 plus other people, they will make assessments based on intelligence that they receive – either from members of the community, family members, people who might have information otherwise, information that they can glean from surveillance or telephone intercepts or device activity otherwise – so they'll put all of that picture together and they'll make a judgment about individuals.
The judgment that was made about this individual was that he was not in the planning stage of an attack. And as I say, where you've got somebody who is buying chemicals, importing or purchasing online different items that might go as precursors to make up a device, an explosive device, you would expect there to be intelligence around that activity. Where you've got somebody who picks up a kitchen knife and grabs a couple of gas bottles and drives into the CBD, these are very difficult circumstances to stop.
And as I say, the police and ASIO have been very clear about this for a long time: where you've got a soft target – that is where you've got a place of mass gathering, whether it's a mall or a food court or somewhere else – you've got somebody as we've seen overseas with a vehicle, with a knife, with an explosive device otherwise, it is very difficult to deal with each and every one of those situations.
So I have nothing but praise for the judgment that the police and that ASIO and others have made in very difficult circumstances.
QUESTION:
Is there any suspicions that this man acted with anyone else or if he acted alone, what's the belief?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Michael obviously that's still under investigation at the moment, but there's nothing that I'm aware of that indicates that there would be another person that he was acting in concert with. There was one person of interest in relation to this incident. He's now dead and the investigation is underway.
QUESTION:
Do we need to look at how we assess threats following this incident?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah look, we should always look at the way in which we assess threats. We should look at the way in which people are on a pathway to citizenship. I've been very open about cancellation of visas. The numbers have ramped up because there are some people who shouldn't go on to become Australian citizens and the law applies very differently obviously to somebody who has Australian citizenship, either by conferral or by birth, as opposed to somebody who is here on a temporary status because they're the holder of a particular visa category.
So yes, I mean there are always lessons to learn. The police obviously – the Joint Task Force, the Victorian Police, the Australian Federal Police – all of those parties will look at every element of this, the movements of this individual before the incident took place, so that's as you would expect.
QUESTION:
When was the assessment of this particular individual made and should that have been readdressed recently?
PETER DUTTON:
Well again there are lots of experts that can provide advice. The police have all of the information. ASIO has all of the information available in relation to a particular individual. Generally where there's a gap in information it's because they don't have a tip off or advice from the public and in those circumstances you can stop a terrorist attack from taking place. If a phone call's made to say you know somebody's just left the house with a house knife and I think they're on their way here or they picked up a gas bottle and I think this is their intent, then there can be an intervention. But in a circumstance where there's not, where somebody makes a spur of the moment decision, where they are under the influence of drugs or alcohol then the police can't contemplate every circumstance so…
QUESTION:
…so you're saying this would have been impossible to prevent given he was one of the people that was already known to those agencies?
PETER DUTTON:
Well unless there's advice, as I say, from a community member or from a family member or there is advice as result of a surveillance process or an intercept of a telecommunications device then it's not – it is very, very difficult. And in a circumstance, as I say, where you've got an individual, low level of sophistication in terms of the attack, there may be no phone call, there may be no advice or planning or purchasing of particular precursors to make an IED for example.
So again we need to be realistic about this and this is a threat that we face and the Prime Minister has been clear about it. We have for a long period of time, since 2014 had the terrorist threat level in our country at 'probable'. And as I said before the police, ASIO, have been very clear about an issue with soft targets where you have people gathering and people that have a low level of sophistication where there may be no communications on devices.
I've spoken a lot about the issue of encryption, where ASIO says in 90 percent of their targets now people are using encrypted messaging apps. And encryption is a great thing because it helps us with banking and secure messages. But where you've got terrorists who are conveying messages and planning whatever it might be and are using encrypted apps, the agencies don't have the ability to discover that information so it is even more difficult today than it was five or 10 years ago to try and deal with some of these cases.
QUESTION:
How many lone wolves do you think there are in the country?
PETER DUTTON:
Well as I say, there are many people within – those that have come back from overseas, those that have been radicalized online, who have radical extremist Islamic views. There's no question about that.
To your question how many would then put that into action, well it's not a question that you can answer. We've been able to stop 14. Seven have got through tragically and our work now is to make sure that the eighth doesn't happen.
But we need to be realistic about the fact that we've got 400 plus people who are under investigation in ASIO at the moment. We've got Joint Task Force operations set up in Victoria, in New South Wales, elsewhere, and there's a lot of information that they'll collate from intelligence agencies from overseas as well.
So I think we are served frankly with the best police and intelligence agencies in the world and that should provide reassurance to the public.
QUESTION:
Some people will say that because he was under suspicion enough for you to take away his passport that it should warrant close monitoring. So what would you say to the public about that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Michael, as I said, the police and ASIO will make their judgments in individual cases. If they're not able to detect a telephone conversation that would have been picked up five years ago, but is now a message through an encrypted message, then they don't have that information.
And the Government's got a Bill at the moment which we think is crucial to get through the Parliament because we do want, particularly where you've got somebody that's of concern or somebody that's ticked certain boxes or red flags, we're worried about that individual and we want to know as much as possible about them, about their communications and their activities.
And if you've got, as Duncan Lewis has advised, 90 per cent of people who are using encrypted apps so that their messages can't be discovered then there is a real black spot for us and that's a vulnerability. So that's why it is important for us to get as much information from the Imams, from spouses, from family members, community members, counsel workers, people that might be interacting with those that might have changed their behaviours, that they think have been radicalized, that may be susceptible to messages from ISIL etc. – make sure that you provide that information to the police or to ASIO because it could result in saving of lives.
QUESTION:
Will the Government's new detention laws be imposed on this man's wife?
PETER DUTTON:
Well I don't have any information in relation to individual cases to give to you. The police will use the laws, they'll operate within the laws as they apply to keep Australians safe and I support them 100 per cent in doing that and if there's evidence in relation to any particular individual that means that they should be subject to control orders or whatever else it might be, that's an issue for them to decide.
QUESTION:
The Prime Minister says that the Government, the wider community and religious leaders need to work together. In the aftermath of these types of incidents there's always a call for Islamic leaders to come forward and call out etc. and you say you want more information from them. So in terms of being proactive, when was the last time you invited such community leaders to meet with you to discuss what Scott Morrison describes as the greatest threat of religious extremism in this country?
PETER DUTTON:
Well all of us have across government – particularly at a senior level – constant contact with community leaders. We move around the country constantly. I met with members of the – senior members of the Islamic community in Canberra only a couple of weeks ago.
Obviously David Coleman, who is the Minister of Immigration, would have contact with the community as well. The Prime Minister spoke yesterday I think about his contact with the leadership within the community and he may well have more to say about that during the course of this week.
But it is a time for community members to step up. I see comments from Anne Aly this morning who want to deny that there is a problem or suggest that this is not the problem that people make it out to be. Of course it is. A 74-year-old man lost his life. People were stabbed. Two police officers went very close to sustaining significant injuries and we need to be realistic about the threat where you're talking about 400 plus people who we have concerns about.
We need to be realistic about the threat and the idea that community leaders would have information, but withhold it from the police or intelligence agencies is unacceptable. And we're best to be honest about the problem that we've got, so that we can address it because otherwise more Australians will lose their lives.
QUESTION:
It is enough though to ask the community to step up? Is the Government itself doing enough to build those relationships?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes, yes.
QUESTION:
How so?
PETER DUTTON:
Well there is significant community engagement programs through the Department of Home Affairs, through Social Services, significant engagement with communities around…..
QUESTION:
….do you think they're effective?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes I do.
And that's why you've seen, as I say, 14 attempts thwarted and why there is a very significant intelligence picture that's relied upon. But there are gaps when you've got people – criminals, terrorists – who are communicating over encrypted messaging apps and hiding that information from police and authorities otherwise, that you know five years ago pre this technology we would have been able to intercept that information. So we need to be realistic about the threat that we've got. We need to put the legislation in place that will stop it from happening and again all you can do is praise – you saw the brave actions of the two police officers in Victoria, but they represent thousands behind the scenes at a state and federal level that are protecting Australians every day.
QUESTION:
On another issue – I know you were away last week – there was an interview Mr Turnbull. Did you see the interview? Are you aware of it? And also he said that you had an obligation to explain why he was rolled, that you were the architect, you rolled him and you haven't explained it to the public.
PETER DUTTON:
Well Michael I was overseas last week so I didn't see the interview. I've certainly seen the reporting of it and had plenty my colleagues' texts in relation to it and whatnot, but I didn't have any comment to make in relation to it.
QUESTION:
[Inaudible]
PETER DUTTON:
I made comments at the time. I'm more interested not in talking about myself, but talking about how we can win the next election. I want to make sure that Scott Morrison is a Prime Minister after the election because Bill Shorten would be a disaster for this country, a disaster for small business, for families. Their abolition of negative gearing would see house prices go down and rents go up. They've got a tax that they're proposing for senior Australians, a tax on electricity. It would be a disaster.
We've got the economy running well. The Government has kept our borders secure. We are stronger on national security at a time when it's needed most than the Labor Party. The Labor Party hasn't even decided yet who their Home Affairs Minister will be. There's some internal fight about whether Shayne Neumann is up to the job and yet it's been weeks since Bill Shorten announced that a Labor Government would have a Home Affairs portfolio. And I think on days like today it demonstrates that the Labor Party doesn't have the ability frankly to put in place the laws, to put in place the resolve to keep our borders secure and our country safe.
QUESTION:
Mr Turnbull said…
PETER DUTTON:
…I don't have any further comments to make in relation to it…
QUESTION:
….Mr Turnbull said that the Australian public hasn't been given an explanation. Do you say that they have?
PETER DUTTON:
Well again, I made comments at the time. People can go back and check that and it's a matter of record in relation to Mr Turnbull's activities on the Tuesday of that week when he brought a vote on.
So any other questions on the very important issue that we came here to discuss?
QUESTION:
[inaudible] do you need to change your approach to the 400 people that are already on the watch list?
PETER DUTTON:
Yeah its good question and I've had those discussions with both Duncan Lewis, with Andrew Colvin and Mike Pezzullo, the Secretary of my Department, and our National Security Coordinator about ways that we can learn from the incident in Melbourne, ways that we can learn from what's happening overseas. In particular we've had significant engagement with the UK and the US on ways in which they can identify people, look at indicators, obviously the use of analytics and many other technological solutions potentially to scanning through thousands of documents and the rest of it is what we're looking at.
So yes, I mean we should always learn whatever we can and make sure that we're world's best practice. And, as I said, I'm confident looking at the work behind the scenes that's undertaken every day by the Federal Police, by our state police agencies and by ASIO that we have not only some of the best agencies, but the best people in the world.
I think that should provide assurance to Australians, but we do need the public to step up to provide information – even anonymously if that suits them – because if you provide that snippet of information we have a greater ability to stop that threat from coming to fruition, from people being harmed or killed. And all Australians want to stop this evil ideology and the extremism associated with it that we saw take place in Melbourne. So again full praise for our police intelligence agencies.
QUESTION:
Minister, 'trolley' man and the bystanders any plans to recognise what they did because they obviously put themselves in the line of fire?
PETER DUTTON:
Well look, I hope that those people that have shown acts of bravery are recognised and I'm sure that they will be in due course.
Obviously the focus for us at the moment is to look at the investigation to make sure that there is no enduring threat to deal with others that that may step up to pose a threat.
But in these circumstances I don't think anyone knows how they would react if they're seeing somebody being stabbed in the head with a knife. But if you're somebody that's willing to step forward in that circumstance and provide support to the police, then frankly I think they should be commended. I know there are critics out there that have suggested otherwise, but the fact is nobody could truly comprehend how you would respond when you've got a vehicle on fire, gas bottles involved, a person who obviously is of a fairly strong build and stature, from the footage I've seen, lunging a knife toward people or toward police officers. Then the people that step up and try and protect other members of the public or try to neutralize that threat, frankly, I think they should be commended for their actions. They shouldn't put themselves in situations unnecessarily and all of those caveats associated with it, but let's be realistic: none of us ever want to be in that situation even as a witness, let alone a victim.
And I think people – again the so-called experts on the sidelines who offer commentary – it's very hard unless you've been in a situation like that where there is high pressure, where there is significant loss of life potential. People didn't know whether there were explosive devices either strapped to him or in the motor vehicle otherwise and all of those split second decisions that people make including the police officers will be trawled over by many, but they should be praised by all. And I think the heroes that we saw in Melbourne stepped up. The police officers killed that man necessarily because he was on a rampage that would have resulted in the loss of many more lives and clearly his intent by having a vehicle there on fire with explosives in the form of gas tanks was ultimately aimed at killing more people.
So I think there are many heroes in this circumstance and, as I say, there are many that the public don't see: the ASIO officers, the undercover agents, the police officers that we see the work of behind the scenes every day. All of us as Australians should be very proud of the work that they do.
Thanks very much.
[ends]
