Subjects: Regional processing on Nauru.
E&EO…………………………………………………………………………………………..
LAURA JAYES:
Joining me now is the Immigration Minister Peter Dutton. Thank you for your time. First of all your reaction to the piece that you've seen that we've presented from last week?
PETER DUTTON:
Well look, I think there'll be a mixed reaction. I think a lot of people will look at the amount of money that the Australian taxpayer has spent on island in terms of infrastructure, particularly around health and education, housing and people will say that the Australian Government has been very generous. Others will say the conditions aren't good enough, aren't up to Australian standards. So I think there'll be a mixed reaction.
My reaction is that – like I've always said – I want to get women and children, family units off Nauru as quickly as possible, but we need to do it in a way that doesn't restart boats and that remains our objective obviously.
LAURA JAYES:
I had multiple sources both from the United States and from Nauru that told me that this will be a very limited deal. The numbers weren't particularly firm, but this will mean only about 300, perhaps 400 individuals from family groups will be resettled in the United States.
PETER DUTTON:
Well that's not the case, but we haven't detailed numbers. And as I've said, the priority is women and children and family units and then single males beyond that. So that's the arrangement that we've entered into and we'll have people on island, as you pointed out in your package, from Sunday or Monday from the United States Department of Homeland Security. They'll conduct the checks which will be on top of the information that they've already received from officers within my Department, information about individuals and family units. And we also – where we've got families separated – we want to reunite those families so that they can go to the United States. So there's an initial grouping I guess if you like of somewhere in that order if not more that have been referred as part of an initial wave of consideration for the people that will arrive from the US. So that may be where there's some confusion, but it's not defined.
LAURA JAYES:
…but why aren't you putting a number on it then?
PETER DUTTON:
Because we don't want people smugglers to use it as propaganda, that somehow this might be available to you, or that it's …
LAURA JAYES:
…but in two or three months we might know anyway so they can use it as a propaganda tool then.
PETER DUTTON:
We'll allow them to use it then, but we have been very deliberate in Operation Sovereign Borders in releasing the information that we believe is in the public interest, but not in the people smugglers' interest. And we've been successful at stopping boats, we've been successful at closing 17 detention centres on the mainland, getting 2000 children out of detention and we now want to get family units off Nauru and people off Manus as well and that's what we're working towards. So we make these judgements and that's the judgement we've made.
LAURA JAYES:
Well in saying, that Nauru has family groups, Manus doesn't. So you would expect that this whole allocation, which a number you won't put on it, will be all from Nauru.
PETER DUTTON:
I'm just not going into what the number is, or whether it's defined, or whether it's limited by number. I'm not going into any of that detail because that's been a discussion with the United States. And it's not in our best interests to have that number out there because we've got people smugglers in Indonesia and elsewhere at the moment telling people to hop onto boats, if they have got children and if they're part of family units that they'll go to the United States.
That's the propaganda, the power of social media and the propaganda that they're putting out there. We're working very hard to counter that because we've been absolutely clear that this US deal will only apply to those people on Nauru and Manus now and it will not under any circumstance apply to a new arrival by boat and that's a message the people smugglers need to hear.
LAURA JAYES:
But Minister this United States deal to me would seem it's not the panacea that the Government has tried to present it as. This will not solve much of your problems when it comes to Nauru and Manus Island. It is a huge inroad, it should be applauded, but is it fair to say that this is why you keep continuing to look for a multi country deal?
PETER DUTTON:
Well we've never presented this as a panacea. We've said this is one part of the solution and the solution is pointless if you put yourself in a position where new arrivals are filling the vacancies. That is a complete nightmare scenario that we don't want to contemplate and that's why we are putting more assets at sea, it's why we're doing more work with policing and intelligence agencies within our region and it's why we're not releasing all of the detail. We've said that this should be a multi-lateral arrangement, we've entered into this arrangement with the United States and we've got discussions ongoing.
But as I said before, the reports about the 300 number are completely false. So I don't want people to conjure up in their mind that this is limited by that number. It's not, but I'm not going to go into the finer detail of it, but that is completely false.
LAURA JAYES:
But perhaps the United States is looking at…ok well I'll put this to you…Has the United States discussed a number with you that you're not willing to tell us?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes and I'm not going to detail that. And there are very good reasons for that, which no doubt in due course will be discussed and people can traverse it, they can comment. I'm not going to join the commentary.
My job is to get women and children off, to make sure that we can get people otherwise off Nauru that have arrived by boat, but most importantly to make sure that we don't get new boat arrivals. And that's why the legislation we've got before the Parliament now is incredibly important for Labor to support and sadly up until this point they haven't.
LAURA JAYES:
I just want to go back to one of your previous answers and I will get to that legislation that hasn't been put before the house this week. You said that your aim is also to reunite family groups: some family members that are in Australia and obviously some family members in Nauru. Are you just talking about family members who are in Australia, about 200 to 300, who are getting medical assistance? Or are you talking about the change in legislation where you saw extended families, depending on what boat they arrived on - I think it was July the …
PETER DUTTON:
…2013.
LAURA JAYES:
Yeah, 2013. So can you just clarify that?
PETER DUTTON:
We'll have a look at each situation and we'll reunite families where that's possible. Now again I'm not going into the detail of that. I mean it may be for example that the father is on Manus Island or is in Australia or elsewhere, but we will look at those individual cases. We will take a compassionate approach to it, but we're not going to broadcast the way in which we're going to facilitate that. But we do want to see families reunited and I've been very clear about that.
LAURA JAYES:
What have you heard about potential protests, potential cases of self-harm once the US allocation is exhausted? I mean we heard the Nauruan Deputy Police Commissioner saying that that's something they're concerned about. Is this something that's come across your desk as well?
PETER DUTTON:
Well our officers obviously work very closely with the Nauruan Police Force and the contracted staff on island, so there's a lot of intelligence that's gathered about the mood and the response that's appropriate to that. So that's an aspect for the professionals to consider and if they need to provide more resources or if they need to counter some of that activity they will and that's been the case in the past.
But it's interesting to note that there hasn't been any of that behaviour since the announcement of the US deal. And we'll continue to work with people because we want to allow people to return back to their country of origin, or to the United States, or indeed to Cambodia.
We don't want people to listen to the advocates who are quite unhelpfully continuing to tell people not to go back to their country of origin or not to accept the US deal. And frankly those people might feel good about themselves, but they are prolonging the difficulty for those families on Nauru at the moment. I think it's quite unwarranted and I think it's quite unfair.
LAURA JAYES:
I do want to go to the advocates, because look I think you're right. In their own mind they think that they're doing the right thing. They don't believe in the Government's policy, they don't believe in Labor's support of the Government's policy to an extent. But are they – I mean, I've heard anecdotally, I spoke to an advocate on the phone who called a refugee who then put me onto the phone while I was there. Why do you think they're doing it, and how – I mean it seems that they really are getting through to some of these refugees. They're not going to work, they're not signing up for this US deal, they're very, very sceptical about it. So it's quite a big influence, and I don't think it's just a handful of advocates, it seems like there is a whole network. Is that right?
PETER DUTTON:
Well there is, absolutely and as you point out, I mean some, most, might be very well intentioned, it maybe they think that at some stage people will come to Australia. Under no circumstance will they. I've been very clear about that and if people are offered a deal….
LAURA JAYES:
….so advocates are telling these refugees, do you believe; hold tight the Australian Government will capitulate or there will be an election and there'll be a change of policy. Is that the message?
PETER DUTTON:
That's exactly the message and I've been very clear to advocates, I've been very clear to people on Nauru and Manus – and I'd say to the people on Nauru and Manus; look at what you've been told over the course of the last couple of years by these advocates, that you will come to Australia at some point, that the policy will change – none of that has come true. These people can't be trusted. They are emotionally involved in the issue, and that's fair enough, but I have been very clear, the Government has been consistent in saying that you will not come to Australia and that remains the case.
I will repeat today that we have entered into an arrangement with Nauru for a 20 year visa. People who are offered the US deal, are accepted under the US deal, but refuse to go to the United States, their support from the Australian Government will cease from that day. They will be subject to a 20 year visa on Nauru and they will not receive ongoing assistance from the Australian Government.
Now, people can listen to advocates that that won't happen, but I promise you that we will put that into place. Now, people might say that that's a tough message, but I want people to hear on Nauru very clearly that this is a deal, it's a one-off arrangement, if you don't accept the United States of America as an outcome, then frankly you're not genuine in the case that you're putting forward. If you've got family in Australia, we'll help repatriate those people with you to the United States or to another a third country that we enter into an arrangement with, but you are not coming to our country to settle.
I understand people are angry because they've paid in some cases well over $10,000, $15,000, $20,000 to come here. We'll provide them with financial support to help them re-establish their lives back in their country of origin – if that is appropriate – but under no circumstance are they coming to our country and this false hope that is being offered out by advocates at the moment, may well be well intentioned, but it is going to prolong the difficulty of those people that they seek to help and I want that to be made very clear. I want this to be a no surprises scenario because this is the outcome, a 20year visa with no ongoing assistance from the Australian Government these people are currently experiencing, and that should be a very clear reminder to people to consider the option to go to the United States.
We aren't talking about a third world country, we're talking about the opportunity to start a new life in the United States of America that many people around the world would take up in a heartbeat and that shows you the complexity of what we're dealing with.
LAURA JAYES:
Still, Muslim men told me that they don't want to go to Donald Trump's America. What do you make of that?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, stay on Nauru for 20 years. That's your option. So either go back to your country of origin, you accept the US deal or you're staying in Nauru for the next 20 years, if that's your choice. If you're being offered the United States, along with people of all religions that currently enjoy a free life – a very successful life in many cases in the United States – that is what's on offer to you. If you want to play political games, if you want to make statements and grandstand and run causes, well that's fine, but you'll be doing that from Nauru on a 20 year visa and the assistance ongoing as you're currently experiencing from the Australian Government will cease.
LAURA JAYES:
Does this make passing the lifetime ban on boat arrivals all the more urgent?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes, of course it does.
LAURA JAYES:
Why aren't you considering it this week?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, because we don't want the Bill voted down. I don't want that message going out into the region. People have heard the message very clearly that the Government's got this Bill before the Parliament and I believe that Labor will come around and support this Bill. Their position is untenable.
Now, Mr Shorten might be held to ransom by the 26 members who have come out against this Bill within his own Party, but I think public pressure will continue to mount – particularly if we see on water activity, if we see boats recommence – then I think the pressure will squarely fall onto Mr Shorten's shoulders and I think if he wants to act in the national interest, as opposed to his own political interest, then he'll support the legislation and he should do that. As soon as they say that they'll support it, we'll bring it back into the Parliament – we'll negotiate with the Independents in the interim.
LAURA JAYES:
What about those who told me that they are willing to consider another country, such as Malaysia? A number of them, both on camera and off camera have said that would be a place that they're willing to be resettled. Can you give them any joy, any hope there?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, I'm just not going to rule countries in and out as I've consistently said. We're in discussion with a number of countries and they're at different stages of discussion and negotiation and when we've got an announcement to make, we'll make that announcement at a time of our choosing, when it's appropriate to do so. But at the moment, people have got the option to go to the United States or to stay in Nauru, but not to come to Australia or indeed they can go to Cambodia, as others have done.
LAURA JAYES:
If I could go to the conditions in the camp, in particular, why are single men still living in tents? It's not all of them, I acknowledge, but it's about two dozen.
PETER DUTTON:
Well, some people have made a decision that they don't want to live in the community housing, some people have made a decision, in particular….
LAURA JAYES:
…the community housing is, as I understand it, full at the moment. There are more being built but…
PETER DUTTON:
There are options out in the community for a number people. Some people have decided, as you point out, that they want to stay in a group situation within that particular part of the island. So, that's a decision for them and we can deal through… go through each case, but for some of those people they've taken a decision that they want to be and remain in a group arrangement.
LAURA JAYES:
Are you saying they've chosen to live in a tent in what is a very sweaty area, 40 degrees with mouldy mattresses; is that what….
PETER DUTTON:
…as opposed to air conditioning or as opposed to some of the other modern accommodation that's provided to many people, in some cases I'm advised that is the case, yes.
LAURA JAYES:
Really?
PETER DUTTON:
Yes.
LAURA JAYES:
Have you been given reasons why?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, there may be cultural reasons, they may be a group of friends that they don't want to be separated from, maybe other reasons that people are in relationships; I don't know and if people have got mould on their mattress or mould in the tent; they can clean it, like all Australians clean their own house or clean their own yard up or whatever the case might be, people can actually clean the mattress themselves if they're living in a humid environment and they find that the mattress has got mould. I mean we're not using taxpayer's money to send in daily cleaners, we're not running a hotel. We're providing safe haven for people until they can return back to their country of origin.
Don't forget that there are 65 million people in the world that would seek to come to a country like ours today and many of these people have decided that they want a better outcome, better life, better economic future for their families; fair enough, and I have a lot of sympathy for that, but we aren't providing a hotel here. We're providing an arrangement which will see people remain in a safe environment until they can return back to their country of origin or go to a third country.
LAURA JAYES:
Ok. A number of children suffering psychological trauma; I'm no psychologist, I'm no doctor, but you can see it, you can see the difference in some of these children, the ones that are going to the school and the ones who aren't. Whether it be a product of their situation now – some small children have been born into detention, one little girl in Darwin, now she's been moved to Nauru, others, similar situation. I do acknowledge that some of this could be post-traumatic stress disorder from the conditions in which they've come, from the source or their home country, but what is our responsibility? Are you as Minister satisfied that everything is being done and we're not just handing out antidepressants like lollies, as one advocate said – not that I saw that – but are we doing enough for the children, the vulnerable children, in particular?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Laura, none of us want to see any child suffer. I don't want to see any children drowning again. If you look at the backgrounds of some of these families, they've come from a very difficult part of the world. They've seen a lot that Australian children would never see, coming from a war torn country or from a persecuted environment, some of them have seen people drowning on boats or have seen terrible things in countries that they've hopped through before they've decided to hop on a boat to come to Australia, and they've been listening obviously to parents, to advocates, and to groups who tell them that they'll come to Australia and one day they'll settle in Australia. There has been a lot of false hope offered out to some of these children and it's very sad. I want to provide a resolution to these issues as quickly as possible, but we've just gone through some of the advice that's constantly messaged to people with children not to leave Nauru, only come to Australia and eventually you'll come here and we've been very clear that that's not the case.
Now, where children need medical attention or indeed anyone needs medical attention, as you would've seen, I mean …
LAURA JAYES:
…well, can I put it …
PETER DUTTON:
… we've put $26 million into the hospital, $11 million into the medical centre. There's a lot of medical support being provided on island.
LAURA JAYES:
Ok. One final question if I can humanise the issue a little bit. The Shirvani family. Adnan, his son Amir, his baby daughter who's 20 months old and his wife who is in Brisbane; the 13 year old doesn't get out of bed, he's on antidepressants, Adnan is on a cocktail of antidepressants and antipsychotics. This to me seemed like a particularly vulnerable family. Is that typical and what is the Government doing for them?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, the Government obviously works very compassionately with the NGOs, with the advocates where we're able to work those people, with officers in my own Department to asses each of the cases individually and the Department will take advice from the medical staff on individual cases. The arrangement is that if people can receive medical attention on island, they do. If people go to PNG to receive the medical attention because they can't get it on Nauru, that's the second option, and the third layer is that they'll come to Australia.
Now, there are many people, well over 300 who have come to Australia where, for example, there may be one person within the family unit that requires medical attention, but many of the family members otherwise will come to support that person. In many, many cases now, as soon as people land on Australian soil, we're injuncted so that they can't be sent back to Nauru and it creates for a very complex arrangement.
But we will look compassionately at each of the cases and the Department makes decisions as quickly as possible to provide the support required. That will be the case, without commenting on a particular individual, that will be the case in all of these matters and I think people would expect nothing less, nothing more.
LAURA JAYES:
It certainly is complex, but Immigration Minister Peter Dutton, you've been very generous with your time. Appreciate it here on The Latest.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Laura. Thank you.
[ends]