Subjects: Migration to Australia; US resettlement of refugees from Nauru and PNG; Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull.
E&EO…………………………………………………………………………………………..
ANDREW BOLT:
Peter Dutton, thank you so much for joining me. What do you make of the huge crime wave in Melbourne involving youths and young men of African descent, many of them Sudanese?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Andrew in fact I've been in Melbourne for most of this week and Jason Wood and other Members have bought to my attention, over a period of time now, the crime wave, the fact people are being followed home and their cars stolen as a result of break and enters and keys being stolen. It's a very worrying issue. I think, like, in the last couple of years people have seen crime wave with bikies and the Queensland Government was able to come down heavily to stamp out that crime and to deal with it – that is similarly what needs to happen in Victoria.
My Department's been doing some work with the Victorian Police to try and identify people of poor character, where we might be able to cancel those visas and that work continues, but look, this is a real concern for Victorians. I think people are rightly angered at the lack of action by the Andrews Government. There are problems around bail laws and this is what happens when you have a state government that's weak on law and order.
ANDREW BOLT:
Look, no doubt there, the law and order issue is very big, lack of policing very big and I have noticed that you've thrown out, or intend to throw out some people back to Africa. But this is reacting afterwards and I'm just wondering; Malcolm Fraser got the Lebanese refugee programme wrong, opened the door to people that his Immigration Minister at the time said do not. Did we make another mistake with the Sudanese refugee programme?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Andrew I guess it's still an open question in terms of what percentage of a particular community, in this case the Sudanese community, is doing the wrong thing. Is it at the margins, given the number of people that have come in?
The other interesting aspect – and we see this in the foreign fighters – we end up looking at people from second and third generations. So the original people that have arrived here, that have sought refuge for example, have done well, they've worked hard, they've educated their children, and it's the second or third generation that's going off to fight and so we need to have a proper look at what has gone wrong – and clearly something has gone wrong, when you have this level of concentrated violence and gang type activity, it is a particular issue – but I think we need to put it into perspective in terms of what the rest of the community is doing by way of contribution.
But we do review the programme each year and if we feel that there are problems with particular cohorts, particular nationalities, particular people who might not be integrating well, not contributing well, then there are many other worthy recipients who would seek to come to a country like ours and make an opportunity their own, to take up the educational and other supports, opportunities that are provided to them.
So look, we can continue to have a look at it. My honest sense is that there is a real breakdown from the Andrews Government in terms of their policing response, and I'm sure the police are frustrated by having one hand tied behind their back as well because regardless of where people come from, if they know that they can get away with these sorts of crimes, they'll continue to perpetuate them, and that's not what we want.
ANDREW BOLT:
Look, again, I couldn't disagree with you on the law and order issue and the weakness of the Andrews Government, but the point really is, there shouldn't be….with a lot of these cases, I often ask, you know, who let them in? And they shouldn't be posing a problem in the first place.
The crime rate among this community is way above the norm; police are now admitting this. I'm just wondering whether we have been factoring in, in our past refugee intakes, even in our immigration intakes, the difference that culture makes in determining whether one cohort of people is going to struggle to fit in or whether another will take to it like a duck to water. Have we done that sufficiently in the past, in your opinion?
PETER DUTTON:
Well clearly, Andrew, if there is a particular problem that people can point to within a certain community, and if we're talking about a significant number of people within that community who are doing the wrong thing, then clearly mistakes have been made in the past and the reality is that Malcolm Fraser did make mistakes in bringing some people in, in the 1970s – we're seeing that today and we need to be honest in having that discussion, there was a mistake made – and if it can be demonstrated that we have a significant proportion of a particular community – we're talking about the Sudanese community in this instance – then we need to work out what's gone wrong.
ANDREW BOLT:
If a culture is important and the children from that culture that then are born here or raised here turn out to be disproportionately, struggling to fit in, is it a mistake to bring their parents in? Is it a mistake, in your view, do we run a risk, in your view, bringing in 12,000 people from Syria and Iraq when so many others from that part of the world have struggled to fit in?
PETER DUTTON:
Well Andrew, I've been very definite about this and the Labor Party has criticised me for the slow pace at which we've brought people in because we're conducting these security checks in concert with the United States, and the first priority is to make sure that we're not bringing people who would pose a threat here and now – that's a real issue to deal with because people are coming out of a war-torn country, out of an area in conflict for many, many years – and we don't want them delivering their troubles onto our shores. So that's the first priority; is to screen those people out that we believe wouldn't be contributing to Australian society – in fact may detract from it through their actions.
We've been very specific about wanting to target people, families. We don't want men of fighting age. We've been very definite. Prime Minister Turnbull's been very definite about this as well, that is that we don't want to bring people in that are going to cause harm. We are targeting persecuted minorities and a very high proportion within that 12,000 will be people that have, you know, a lot to fear because of their Christianity, because of their beliefs, they have a lot to fear from ISIL and from, in many cases, elements of the Assad Regime. I think those people will take the opportunity given to them.
ANDREW BOLT:
Last Sunday you announced a deal to send many of our boat people on Nauru and Manus Island to the United States, but in two months' time the US President will be Donald Trump, who wants a freeze on Muslim immigration, a stop to refugees from Syria, for instance, and last night former top Republican Presidential Adviser Karl Rove tipped that Donald Trump will say no to this deal. Let me just play you what he said last night.
[excerpt]
KARL ROVE:
So those 1,800 people, you'd better get them on airplanes, fill a lot of Qantas planes flying to the United States if you want to keep this problem out of your…off of your agenda and in the United States. Get them here by 20 January, otherwise my suspicion is the new Administration would not feel bound by the agreement that John Kerry has made with the Turnbull Government.
[end of excerpt]
ANDREW BOLT:
We'll know in two months' time, of course, what Donald Trump says. What's your gut feeling? How will he respond?
PETER DUTTON:
Well, Andrew, I've got a lot of time for Karl Rove, he's a great consummate professional within the Republican movement, but everyone has an opinion at the moment and I think one of the aspects now which is obvious is that there aren't too many people, even within the Republican Party, who have an in to the Trump Administration, into Donald Trump, President-elect Trump himself.
So, look I think we have been upfront and open about the arrangement that we've entered into with the Obama Administration. I hope that it can span the next Administration. I'm confident that it can. We'll have that discussion in due course when the new Homeland Secretary is appointed, when we have a better idea of who the key people will be around the Cabinet table, we can have the discussion about the continuity of the programme.
Mr Trump has spoken about increased screening as opposed to banning Muslims, I think, in his latest rhetoric, so we'll wait and see what the policy is of the United States, but obviously a country like Australia has done a lot of work in relation to the individual cases of people who are on Manus and Nauru – not just the security information that we've been able to gather on each individual, but also the health information – I think that will be far superior than any information that might be provided around potential immigrants coming into the US from anywhere else.
It's also important to recognise that this number contained within the US programme that they announced [inaudible] and preside over each year. So I'm confident that we can work with the Trump Administration, just as we've been able to work with the Democrat Administration of Mr Obama.
ANDREW BOLT:
But how many do you think of these 1,600 or whatever the real number is of these boat people on Nauru and Manus, how many of them do you think you can get to the US before Donald Trump is President?
PETER DUTTON:
It won't be a big number because under the US law they need to have face-to-face interviews with people and there are American officials who are in Australia right now and there will be further officials that travel here at the beginning of December and that screening is underway now. Then there'll be the face-to-face interviews. So it'll take some time and we're not going to rush the process, we're not going to try and beat any deadlines or be tricky about the arrangement. We're going to be respectful of both the current Administration and the incoming Administration and I think that approach will benefit us and benefit the United States in the long run.
What's important, Andrew, out of any of this is that the boats don't restart.
ANDREW BOLT:
What's the benefit to the United States?
PETER DUTTON:
We have a very close relationship with the United States and there is a lot that Australia does for the United States which is public; there's a lot that we do with the United States in the Middle East and elsewhere which is not public and so we have, on a number of levels, a very long standing and deep and abiding friendship, relationship with the US and there are some countries that we may not be as close to that would be transactional – so that is, you know, you do this for us and we'll do that for you – the relationship with the United States is much deeper than that and there are things that we do for the United States on a regular basis, including in Syria and Iraq, which is above and beyond what other allies might do with the United States and I think the US respects that.
ANDREW BOLT:
You're not suggesting….you're not hinting here at a quid pro quo, are you? You're not hinting at a quid pro quo, they do this …
PETER DUTTON:
…no, I mean it's…there's been talk of a people swap, that was the Gillard Agreement with Malaysia, which strangely enough we took all the people from Malaysia, but Gillard ended up sending nobody to Malaysia, it was a complete dud deal and then she spoke about East Timor, publicly put that out there, but then forgot to mention it to the East Timorese and that fell in a heap as well.
So this has been an operation long in the planning. We want to get people off Manus and Nauru. We want to empty all the facilities. We've been able to close the 17 detention centres and get the children out of detention here, but we want to get this legislation through the Parliament. We need Bill Shorten to support it because the people smugglers at the moment are hearing a divided message from the Australian political leaders and unfortunately the message of weakness from Bill Shorten is just as bad as the message of weakness that you heard from Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd when they were leading the Labor Party and it seems to me that Shorten is being monstered by the Left, yet again.
ANDREW BOLT:
Look, there's no doubt about that. I'm just saying, you know, if Donald Trump doesn't approve this deal in two months' time – and you're saying he might – that you'll be looking weak yourself. That's the only problem, there's a risk here. That's what I'm driving at.
PETER DUTTON:
Andrew, the beauty of the Immigration and Border Protection portfolio is that there is no easy option on the table. I mean, there are difficult choices in everything presented to me and I have to make the best decision available to me. There's no ideal magic bullet, easy solution here. Labor created a hell of a mess and one of the biggest public policy failures in our history….
ANDREW BOLT:
….oh I'm not arguing that, I'm not arguing that. My question really is in the timing of this announcement before we knew what….whether Donald Trump would go through.
Peter Dutton, look, it's no secret that I've been a fairly strong critic of Malcolm Turnbull. As a Conservative I should be supporting him. What am I not getting about this guy? You're a Conservative. Tell me what I'm missing about this man.
PETER DUTTON:
Well Andrew, I can only tell you of my experience working with Malcolm Turnbull. I mean he hasn't flinched in the background, he hasn't said oh, you know, why are we turning back boats or why are we operating regional processing arrangements where we support those third countries. He's been rock solid. I mean I had a very good working relationship with Tony Abbott. I served him loyally. I voted for him. I worked very closely with him and I've pledged the same loyalty to Prime Minister Turnbull. He's the Leader of our Party and if you're willing to serve in his Cabinet, then you serve loyally. That's been my approach – and it was my approach when I served as a Minister in the Howard Government.
So I can only tell you of my experience and on issues that matter to Conservatives, including the very important issue of border protection, Prime Minister Turnbull has been as strong as Prime Minister Abbott and he's not sought to weaken the policy. I mean, you see publicly what I get in private, that is that he doesn't want boats to restart and we're not going to weaken our policy and I think people should look at it in that light.
ANDREW BOLT:
Yeah, but when I see that, I mean he's got no option. He's got you there riding as shotgun and he's got the Nationals and all that. He can't change. It's more the other aspects. He just strikes me as a bit of a phoney to be honest and I don't know how he's going to overcome that or maybe I'm just embittered or whatever. I don't know. I don't know how he's going to reach out to us Conservatives. I just don't see it.
PETER DUTTON:
I think the other thing that people have in mind too, Andrew, and I was talking to my Mum about this earlier, who's a big fan of Andrew Bolt, and you know, she's….
ANDREW BOLT:
…good Mother.
PETER DUTTON:
She is. I had a good upbringing, thank goodness. Not every anti, you know, Immigration Minister advocate out there has got the same view, but I think I had a pretty good upbringing, I was lucky.
But look, the point is that, you know, Conservatives have a two horse race at the end of this term. The biggest disaster for families, for parents, for grandparents, for small business people would be to have a CFMEU-inspired Shorten government. It's a two horse race and I just ask people to have an open mind and to look at the runs on the board, to look at what has been achieved.
There's a huge frustration in the Senate at the moment, there's no question about that, but we need to point out the significant failings of Bill Shorten and if we concentrate on that then I think we could win the election and win it well and I hope that we can do it with your support.
ANDREW BOLT:
I'm hearing you on that, I'm hearing you on that, but it's just a bit dispiriting to be told, well at least it's not Bill Shorten. I just wish that we could see something positive. But listen, I'm out of time. Immigration Minister Peter Dutton, thank you so much for yours.
PETER DUTTON:
Thanks Andrew. Always appreciate the catch-up.
Thank you.
[ends]
