Topics: Offshore processing and medical transfers
E&OE…
DAVID SPEERS: Well, let's talk more about this issue with the Immigration Minister David Coleman. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. Let's just talk about what's on the table here in this bill that will come before the House. It's not just the two doctors, but if you rejected a recommended transfer an independent health advice panel would have the say. This is a panel of doctors you, as Minister, would be appointing, including your own Department's Chief Medical Officer. Explain to me why that is not an adequate safeguard in your view.
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, David, let's just start at the start. This is a very important area of public policy where we saw a catastrophic failure under the previous government, where 1,200 people drowned at sea, where 50,000 people arrived on boats and where 8,000 children were forcibly placed in detention. We're not talking about ancient Rome, David, we're talking about something that happened about five years ago, and that context is absolutely critical to this issue. So, we come to Government in 2013, we make very significant changes that stop the boats, that secure our borders, that stop the drownings at sea. There were 2,000 kids in detention when we came to office, we got them all out. We have removed all of the children from Nauru, barring four who will shortly travel to the United States. And we have saved Australian taxpayers billions of dollars through the stopping of boats. We've also, David…
DAVID SPEERS: Okay, all right.
DAVID COLEMAN: I just want to finish, it's really important. We've also closed 19 detention centres. So it's very important to understand the context. Now, let me get to the substance…
DAVID SPEERS: That is important, you're right. But just on the - there are 1,000 plus who are still, six years on, at Nauru and Manus Island. We're talking about those who are unwell, need medical care. Just come to this Bill on the table…
DAVID COLEMAN: Yeah, yeah.
DAVID SPEERS: What's wrong with the idea of this panel of doctors you would appoint approving a transfer?
DAVID COLEMAN: Sure. Let's come to the substance of that question, David. So, under the current system the Government of Australia determines when a medical transfer occurs. That's the bottom line. There's a process in place and the Government of Australia, exercising its rights as a sovereign nation, determines when a transfer should occur. Under this system that doesn't happen anymore. So, under this system, two doctors in Devonport who have never met a transferee on Manus or Nauru, say: We think it's necessary for them to come to Australia for assessment. Now, the Minister has 24 hours, 24 hours David, to determine on, quote, reasonable grounds, if that medical advice is wrong. And should the Minister somehow do that in 24 hours, the medical panel then makes the final decision in all cases other than security breaches under the ASIO Act. Now, our advice…
DAVID SPEERS: What's wrong with that? Tell me your concern about that.
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, what's wrong with that, David, is that it means the Government of Australia no longer decides who comes to Australia and that is not how a sovereign government should be run. Because what that means is - I think even the most pro person in favour of this Labor bill would agree that the threshold for the two doctors is so low that, substantially, everyone is going to get that referral within a few weeks…
DAVID SPEERS: Sure, this is why they've got this panel of doctors you would appoint. It's called the Independent Health Advice Panel. So just tell me, your concern about that is they would wave through too many refugee transfers?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, the panel David, as I say, would only see a matter if the Minister rejected the original medical advice within 24 hours, and then within 24 hours would have to make a determination not to make the transfer on medical grounds or, automatically, the person would be transferred. So it is, I think, just fanciful to suggest that the outcome of this…
DAVID SPEERS: Is what you're saying, you wouldn't have faith that such a panel would act in Australia's best interests?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well I think David, it's very, very clear that the outcome of this would be, as our advice suggests, that substantially everyone would come to Australia within a matter of weeks. That's what would happen under this structure…
DAVID SPEERS: Why is that? Why do you think this panel that you would appoint would allow everyone to come to Australia within weeks?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, firstly David, the initial recommendations will be made very, very quickly. The Minister has 24 hours to assess, on reasonable grounds, that the medical advice is wrong, which is obviously a very…
DAVID SPEERS: I'm just wanting to get to why you think this panel, which you would appoint, would wave through everyone within weeks.
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, I think it's quite likely, very likely, David, that the panel would be so inclined that the transfers would occur, and that would mean that substantially everyone would come to Australia within weeks. That would mean that offshore processing…
DAVID SPEERS: This is an important point, Minister, sorry to interrupt. You are saying here that a panel of doctors you appoint would recommend, in your belief, all of them to be transferred?
DAVID COLEMAN: David, I think that the structure of this Bill is such that substantially everyone would be transferred within weeks, and that is consistent with the advice…
DAVID SPEERS: Even doctors you appoint would recommend that?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, you've seen the structure of the panel, David, but the key point is within weeks it is highly likely - and as you know that's the advice we've received - that substantially everyone who is currently on Manus or Nauru would come to Australia. Yes I do believe that. And it is just fanciful, David, to suggest…
DAVID SPEERS: Does that indicate that there is a medical need to transfer all of them?
DAVID COLEMAN: I think what it indicates, David, is that the structure of this legislation is designed to undermine offshore processing to such a state that it no longer exists any more. And David, this is often described as the Phelps bill, but this is actually Bill's bill, because 19 Labor Senators voted for it…
DAVID SPEERS: The question was: if the doctors you appoint to a panel are going to recommend they all be cleared out, does that indicate they all need medical help?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, David, we've got a medical process in place now, which works effectively, and that process, as I said, is based on recommendations from doctors who are physically based in the same country as the patients. And I think common sense says, David, that if someone is physically based on Manus Island or physically based on Nauru, it is logical that the doctors who are best placed to make sound recommendations about whether or not those transfers should occur are people who are actually in the same country and who are within those medical systems. I mean, we've got on Nauru, David, about 60 medical professionals…
DAVID SPEERS: So… sorry, go on.
DAVID COLEMAN: I mean, it's important, David, to provide the context.
DAVID SPEERS: Yes.
DAVID COLEMAN: So, on Nauru there are 60 medical professionals, there are approximately 420 transferees. So there is one medical professional for every seven transferees on Nauru. And, as you know, transfers have occurred when they are needed, but it's occurred in an orderly and sensible way, based on recommendations from doctors who are actually in the same country.
DAVID SPEERS: I'll come back to that. Just on that, given these doctors on the ground are the best-placed, why have you also, just on Monday, announced your own plans for an independent medical panel? Why do you need that?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, this is to provide an extra layer of assurance, David, and it's an important assurance panel. But it doesn't change the underlying structure which is: the Government makes the final decision and the Government retains control. So this panel will consist…
DAVID SPEERS: Do you think they will get it right or get it wrong, this panel, as opposed to the other panel we were talking about?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, let me just explain this panel and how it works, David. So, what this panel will do is, rather than responding to two random recommendations from two doctors from Dapto or Devonport or Kalgoorlie or Perth or wherever, what this panel will do is take a look at any decisions that are made as part of the transfer process, and particularly if there is a decision not to transfer someone. Because the criticism that people make is that transfer decisions don't occur where they should. And what this assurance panel will do - and it will be composed of eminent people - is review any of those decisions, particularly ones not to transfer, and then report effectively to the Minister to say we agree or we don't agree with that decision. And then the Minister will take that into account, and obviously, given the importance of this panel, their recommendations will be important. But it's a very different thing to have some eminent people review decisions that are made as part of an orderly process-which is what we're proposing, than to have a completely randomised process where people who have never met the individuals on Manus and Nauru are saying they need to come to Australia for assessment, which is going to mean the end of offshore processing, David.
And this is really important because we have fixed the problem of Australia's borders, and people on the left of politics might not like that, it might be an inconvenient truth, but it is true. We have fixed the problem that Labor created.
DAVID SPEERS: Okay. If Labor do move a further amendment to this in Parliament that would give the Minister full discretion over any transfer, which way would you vote then?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, as the PM said yesterday, David, Labor's law is a fundamentally bad proposal which undermines our system. And it's not about compromising on a bad law. The current system is effective…
DAVID SPEERS: So you'd vote against it.
DAVID COLEMAN: …and I do want to make this point, David, because this is not theoretical. The Labor Party voted for this and, as you know, seeking a political win on the last day of Parliament, if they'd have had their way in the House of Reps, this would have been the law of Australia as of the sixth of December and, based on all the advice we have, it is highly likely that, by now, everyone on Manus and Nauru, substantially, would be in Australia. Now, Labor then says…
DAVID SPEERS: Can I just…
DAVID COLEMAN: It's important, David, this is an important point. And then Labor says: well, you know, that's not going to somehow undermine offshore processing. You can support offshore processing or you can support the Labor bill that 19 Labor Senators already voted for, but you can't support both because they're fundamentally in conflict.
DAVID SPEERS: Can I just go to the sovereignty of the Australian Government in approving these transfers, which is really at the heart of this debate. Isn't the reality that the courts are actually approving a lot of transfers that the Government has opposed? Can you give us any numbers around that? And is there too much power in the hands of the courts when it comes to medical transfers right now?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well no, the overwhelming majority of transfers have been through the usual process, David, and that's appropriate and as it should be. There have been a number of court matters, as I think you said where the Government opposes – that's not necessarily the case. They're often matters where both parties come together to provide their facts as opposed to opposing one way or the other. But the bottom line is the vast majority of transfers have not occurred as a result of that process, they've occurred as a result of the process that the Government has in place. And David, the proof of the pudding here is the fact that, as you know, substantial numbers of transfers have occurred and we have done this, as the PM says, in a quiet and orderly way. We don't sort of beat our chests and try to make a large thing of this. We do this when it's needed, we do it in a sensible way. But what we can't have, David, is a system where the orderly process for transfers collapses, where basically substantially everyone comes to Australia in a short period of time. Because for people smugglers, these are evil people, they will see that fact and they will leap on it. And to be frank, the people smugglers will have something to market. And I think another really important point, we talk a lot…
DAVID SPEERS: Let me just ask you…
DAVID COLEMAN: Sorry, can I just finish please. We talk a lot about the thousand people who are on Manus and Nauru. Labor's law doesn't just apply to the people who are there now, David, it applies to any future arrival as well. So, here's a scenario: a boat arrives because of the new law, people are taken to Manus and Nauru…
DAVID SPEERS: That's true, I appreciate it applies to anyone who goes there, okay.
DAVID COLEMAN: In the future.
DAVID SPEERS: Sorry, we are tight on time. I get that. Let me just ask you one final one about those who are still there on Nauru and Manus Island. What's your view, Minister, on the New Zealand option? If the Government were able to pass legislation to, it's called close the back door, prevent them coming to Australia at any point in the future, would you be happy to resettle at least some in New Zealand?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well look, we've had legislation on the table since 2016 that is very important in terms of stopping any suggestion that people could permanently settle in Australia and the Opposition has continued to oppose that, and our position hasn't changed in relation to that legislation. I mean, the United States has taken 456 people…
DAVID SPEERS: What's the deal here? If they did pass that could some go to New Zealand?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, again, David, our position is that that legislation has been on the table since 2016 and it remains our position. That legislation is fundamental. So our focus in terms of resettlement has been the very successful United States deal.
DAVID SPEERS: My question is if it passes, though, could you resettle some in New Zealand?
DAVID COLEMAN: Well, again, David, our position is that the legislation is the key issue at this point. The Opposition does not support that legislation. We've been successful with the United States deal. And one other point I'd like to make is that people who are on Manus Island are also able to resettle today in Papua New Guinea, permanently, and a significant number have. So we have been successful in the United States and that remains our focus.
DAVID SPEERS: Immigration Minister David Coleman, I do appreciate your time this morning. Thank you.
DAVID COLEMAN: Thanks David.
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