SUBJECTS: Qantas Cyber Hack, Gaza Visa Applications
JAMES GLENDAY: Well, let's get some more on our top stories now and we're joined by the Home Affairs Minister and the Cyber Security Minister, Tony Burke. Tony, welcome back to the program.
TONY BURKE: Hi, James.
GLENDAY: Can I just start off with Qantas and the publication of this data of customers, what sort of advice would you be giving Australians this morning?
BURKE: Well, first of all, no one should go looking for it on the dark web. It's illegal to access it. So, even if you're looking for your own material, don't. No one should go looking for it. Secondly, as a result of this being out there, it does make it more likely. Now, for most people, their phone numbers, for example, aren't part of this breach. But there are some people where phone numbers and a very small number where home addresses are there. If you get a cold call that you were not expecting and it sounds official, and it sounds like they know enough that it might actually be the company, hang up, call back. Particularly with the development of artificial intelligence, it is becoming easier and easier for these scams, not only to make it look like they're officially from the company, but even to talk to you in a voice that sounds very familiar. So, the strong advice is if you - it's four things that we tell people to do. Always make sure your updates are being done. Use passphrases. If you have multi-factor authentication available, you should always use it. But finally, if you get that cold call, hang up, call back. Don't presume that even though they sound official, that in fact you're talking to someone from the company.
GLENDAY: What sort of consequences do companies like Qantas face for essentially not protecting Australians data well enough? Because we're seeing this happen more and more. Should they be forced to pay compensation? Should they potentially be fined?
BURKE. So, in terms of the issue of fines - well, the first thing with respect to fines is this, the fact that Qantas had outsourced this function to another company does not mean that they had outsourced their obligations. They still had the obligation as a company and you can't simply outsource to other companies and think, suddenly you've got no obligations on cybersecurity. You still do. The other thing. And so the process and the authorities go through working out whether legal thresholds are met in terms of actual fines. My priority right now has been doing everything we could to protect data and doing everything we can to make sure that people know how to deal with different forms of abuse of their data, if it may well happen.
GLENDAY: I understand that, Minister. I just think people this morning will watch and they will have seen what happened with Medibank and other big companies and think, what are the consequences for these companies when they don't - when they cut costs, outsource things and then it all goes wrong?
BURKE: No, no, I hear you. And there are very serious penalties. I'm just not at the stage this morning to be able to tell you of a prosecution, that's all. There are very serious penalties. The obligation can't be outsourced. The obligation remains with these companies and it's not enough just to say, oh, we've spent a whole lot of money on making sure that we've got really good firewalls in our systems and all of that. As I've, I made the point a few months ago, it's not just making sure you've got the technical firewall, it's also making sure you have the human firewall, and that is making sure that your staff the whole way through the business are properly trained and know to make sure that there's nothing they do that could inadvertently allow these sorts of attacks easy access.
GLENDAY: Just on another issue, we're of course monitoring developments out of the Middle East this morning ahead of the planned release of Israeli hostages. If the ceasefire holds, are you expecting an increase in people from Gaza applying for visas to temporarily come here while Gaza is rebuilt?
BURKE: Look, we have a group of people who are already visa holders and they, they are the main group that we've been looking at. They've been, they've been checked by our security intelligence agencies a number of times. They have family connections to Australia, and they are the people that we're focusing on. There were, there were some of them, for example, a couple of people who'd been hiding in a church for 18 months who came through Sydney Airport a few weeks ago.
GLENDAY: Do you know roughly how many people are likely to come here, Minister?
BURKE: The number of visa holders who are still there is in the order of 600 to 700. And there has never been a group where we have conducted more security checks. The work that's been done is very thorough and they have family connections to Australia. So, they're the people who I'm very much focused on. There's been, for some of the people on the Israeli side of the conflict as well, there's been some people where humanitarian visas have been issued with similar checks being done there as well.
GLENDAY: Just before I let you go, this story seems a lot less serious than what else we've been discussing. But at the end of Last week, former Wallaby David Pocock was kicked out of Parliament’s sports club after raising questions about gambling sponsorship. I just wanted to get your view. Have you ever taken part in one of these sports events and been worried about the influence of the gambling lobby there?
BURKE: You've outed me here. I never have for a minute in my time in Parliament been a member of the Parliamentary sports club. I’ve got a guitar in my office. That's my exercise. So, this entire sporting thing around Parliament, I would probably be a healthier and live longer person if I was, but I've never been part of it. So, I've been learning about it as you have.
GLENDAY: Right, there you go. Well known in the Canberra performing scene, Tony Burke, thank you very much for joining us this morning.
BURKE: Great to talk.
