​SUBJECTS: ISIS brides, Temporary Exclusion Order

SARAH FERGUSON: The Home Affairs Minister, Tony Burke, joins me now. Welcome to the program.

MINISTER FOR HOME AFFAIRS, TONY BURKE: Good evening.

SARAH FERGUSON: Now, that order that's been made, why was that decision made today?

BURKE: The decision was made on Monday. Effectively, because the clock starts ticking on these sorts of exclusion orders, the work gets done by the Department in advance. But once reports start to come that somebody might be moving, that's the time that you initiate those sorts of orders.

FERGUSON. So, to be clear about that, it was the movement of that group, those people from the camp?

BURKE: The reports of the movement.

FERGUSON: And just explain this to me. You've known about the presence of those women in that camp, you've known about the worsening situation in the adjacent camp for some time. Why does it take their actual movement to force you into action? Why not have this in place weeks, months ago?

BURKE: If we put an exclusion order in two years ago, for example, that time would now be up and it would have-

FERGUSON: What about three months ago? Why the rush today?

BURKE: Because you have the beginning of the period where it might be relevant. Excluding somebody who is not in a position to come is an irrelevant document. Excluding somebody who might be attempting to come to Australia is relevant and so you have the work already being done all the time - as our intelligence, security and law enforcement agencies never stop collecting information - that work is always being prepared. Then when you have the moment that it could be relevant, then you decide to take the action.

FERGUSON: What age is the person we're talking about?

BURKE: I'm not going to give information that would identify the individual. The general information I can give you is this: first of all, temporary exclusion orders cannot be given to somebody under 14. There’s been some inquiries ‘is it a child?’ Under 14, the law simply doesn't allow it at all.

FERGUSON: It could be someone aged 14 or aged 15.

BURKE: Technically, it's available to them. This individual is somebody who migrated to Australia under the Howard Government, received citizenship under the Howard Government and went to Syria under the Abbott Government.

FERGUSON: Does this person have children?

BURKE: I won't go to further parts of identification. The papers have been given to the individual's lawyers. That happened today. We made sure that nothing was made public until it was in possession of the lawyers. They may choose to make the case public, but that'll be up to them.

FERGUSON: And has this person applied for a return permit to Australia after receiving that order.

BURKE: I'm glad you've raised that, because a temporary exclusion order basically sets in place a two year period where you can apply for a permit. If you apply by law, a permit must be issued. But a permit can provide a 12 month delay. So, while it's called a two year temporary exclusion order, the practical impact if someone applies to come is you can keep them out of Australia for a further 12 months. That allows more work to be done by your security, intelligence and law enforcement agencies. It increases the capacity if there is to be law enforcement action on their arrival for the best possible case to be put together as well.

FERGUSON: Just to clear up the relationship between this decision and the movement of those women and children to try to get to Lebanon, obviously they were turned around and sent back to the camp. It's reported that they were carrying Australian travel documents or passports, is that correct?

BURKE: I've seen those reports and the reality is anyone who's a citizen is able to apply for a passport and receive a passport. In the same way-

FERGUSON: You must know by the time you've come onto this program tonight whether they did or did not have.

BURKE: Yeah I do and I think I'm giving the very practical answer that if anyone applies for a passport as a citizen, they are issued with a passport, in the same way that if someone applies for a Medicare card, they get a Medicare card. These are automatic processes done by public servants.

FERGUSON: That was a long way of saying yes.

BURKE: I've given the answer with the words I wanted to.

FERGUSON: The answer is yes. So, just to confirm that the children, that is all of the children in the camp, are they Australian citizens with the same right as any citizen in Australia? Just talking about the children for the moment.

BURKE: Anybody who has been found to be a citizen and has applied and been issued with a passport, everybody has the same citizenship in Australia.

FERGUSON: The opposition wants a guarantee that the rest of the group will not be permitted to enter Australia. What do you want to happen?

BURKE: Well, I think they should look at the laws they voted for and that they put in place when they were in government. There's a lot of very silly, deeply hypocritical claims coming from the opposition today.

First of all, this is not the first time and the lead in that you just played referred to the occasions that there had been repatriations, repatriations under the Morrison Government, repatriations that have happened since.

What it didn't refer to is when people have just returned themselves. Under the Coalition we had in the order of around 40 people do self managed returns that didn't just include women and children but included fighters. Included men who had gone there to fight. Now they were among the returns who came back. The fact that people with Australian passports have returned from those sorts of situations is not new. It happened under them. What is different is the blowing out of all proportions that's happening from them right now.

What we are making sure of is we are working closely with our intelligence, security and law enforcement agencies where it meets a threshold and it's in the interests of community safety to be able to put in a temporary exclusion order, we are doing it and doing it on advice. But some people will be weighing up if they do get out and they're at a situation of deciding do they want to make the next step to Australia. Some of them will have to weigh up whether or not the reality of coming back to Australia is that they won't be living at home because of criminal charges that will be brought.

FERGUSON: Now, we also know the conditions in this camp are dire. They are dire from a health point of view. They're clearly dire from the point of view of any child having a anything like a proper start in life. What outcome do you want for those children?

BURKE: These are horrific situations that have been brought on those children by actions of their parents. They are terrible situations, but they have been brought on entirely by horrific decisions that their parents have made.

FERGUSON. So, what's the resolution for those children.

BURKE: The parents, if they are able to get out and if the children return to Australia, then the children would be in a situation similar to what happened under the Morrison Government.

FERGUSON: But is that what you want for those children?

BURKE: Well, what I want is not available. What I want is for these individuals to have not made a decision as horrific as going to one of the most dangerous parts of the world to provide support in some way or another to one of the most horrific organisations we have seen.

FERGUSON: But given the circumstances, we understand all of everything that you want to say about the decisions that were made putting them there in the first place. But the reality tonight is they are in that camp. What is it that you want as a resolution for the children of that group?

BURKE: You want every child in the world to be as safe as possible.

FERGUSON: These are highly unusual circumstances.

BURKE: I know it's highly unusual, but it's also the question asks me to answer as though the parents haven't had agency and don't have agency now, and I believe they do.

FERGUSON: In 2022, your predecessor as Home Affairs Minister, Claire O'Neil, said it was in the nation's interest to return children so they wouldn't be subjected every day to radical ideologies. And we know that is an issue in that camp. So, has anything changed? Because as things stand at the moment, those children are remaining in that camp two years later being exposed to that radical thought.

BURKE: Parents sometimes very, very rarely make decisions to put their children in horrific, radicalised situations and that is what has happened here.

FERGUSON: Except that you are the person in this storey who has the capacity to act. The children don't.

BURKE: Well, I think the parents have capacity here. What happens with their movements as I say, some of them may well decide to never come back to Australia because they don't want to face the full force of the law. Be in no doubt the full force of the law will greet those who are found to have committed crimes.

FERGUSON: Now, we understand that Dr. Jamal Rifi, who's a longtime political associate of yours, is in the region trying to enable those families to get to Lebanon with the idea of returning to Australia. You said you've had no dealings with him. He's a very long term political associate of yours. He worked on your re-election, helped your re-election in Watson at the last election. Why wouldn't you speak to Jamal Rifi, who you've known for a long time?

BURKE: Well, he and I have different views on this. The government has one view, Jamal Rifi has another. Right back to the Morrison Government. Jamal Rifi was one of the people lobbying the government back then. He's been very public about his view on this. This is something where-

FERGUSON: This is something that at the same time you were, we know that you took part in meetings where you gave intimations that if it could be done quietly, a resolution for those women and children was something that the government desired. It's clear from the notes that were leaked.

BURKE: Well, I don't accept that interpretation.

FERGUSON: They were notes made by the head of the Department at the time.

BURKE: Yeah, I don't accept the interpretation that you've just put over that and I think the best evidence is the letter that came back after from Save the Children, a very frustrated letter acknowledging that the government would not assist.

SARAH FERGUSON. So, when you said the thinking is if people are able to get out, there are no blockages to them returning. That isn't an indication that the government would support their return.

BURKE: Well, I think the best evidence of that not being what's happened is the fact that there's a temporary exclusion order in place for one of those. That implication would be that I never would have done that. I have, I did it on Monday.

FERGUSON: A temporary exclusion order. Yes. Ordered on Monday. Just very briefly on the. On the Prime Minister, Scott Morrison was compassionate about that first group of children who were brought out. The Prime Minister says today, you made your bed, you lie in it. What's changed? Is it Bondi that's made this such a difficult situation for the government now to resolve?

BURKE: The views that the Prime Minister has put there, he's been putting for some time. He was putting them before Bondi. He was putting them before the last election as well. These are very strong views of conviction that the Prime Minister has put. A deep frustration that parents would ever make a decision like that. A deep level-

FERGUSON: Are you and he on the same page?

BURKE: Yes, I'm a member of the National Security Committee, of course I am. A deep commitment and conviction of just how appalling organisations such as ISIS are and the damage they're capable of doing and a total rejection of them. Those views from the Prime Minister have been going back a long time.

FERGUSON: Tony Burke, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

BURKE: Good to be back.​