PATRICIA KARVELAS: Millions of us have had our personal details, ranging from credit cards, identification documents, to highly sensitive medical records exposed in recent cyberattacks on some of our biggest businesses. The government is working on a strategy to tighten security around your personal information and to stop major hacks happening at an ever-increasing rate. The Minister in charge of all of this is the Home Affairs Minister, Clare O'Neil, and she joins us. Welcome.
CLARE O'NEIL: Good morning, PK, and good morning to your listeners.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Last night, a Russian hacker told Four Corners, Australians are the most stupidest humans alive when it comes to hacking. Why are we considered such an easy target?
CLARE O'NEIL: Oh, look, I don't think that Australia is considered an easy target. I think that might have been the impression given before when we didn't have national leadership on this issue. But that did change when the government was elected in May last year. And what we saw was Anthony Albanese step up and say that cybersecurity is our country's national security. He appointed the first Cabinet minister with responsibility for this area in me, and we have done an absolute power of work over the last year, absolutely more than was done in the five years preceding it, to make our country safer. I think all Australians can see we've got a bit of a hill to climb here. We are five years behind where we need to be, but there is an enormous amount of effort going into making sure that Australia is a hard target and we are making significant ground on that.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, you say five years behind. You said that, what, six months ago as well? Are we still five years behind or have you accelerated it?
CLARE O'NEIL: Look, we've done an enormous amount of work. We've set up Hack the Hackers, which is the first time the Australian government has asked the Federal Police and the cyber guns in the Australian Signals Directorate to work together to basically turn their energies and forces onto debilitating and degrading the ability of the hacking groups that were profiled on Four Corners last night and prevent them from hurting Australians. And that work is going really, really well and it's a model that countries around the world are looking at. I have set minimum standards for Australian companies who are working in critical sectors. We've changed privacy laws so that there are real penalties for companies that don't protect the data of Australians. We've set up an incident response function in the Australian government, which, frankly, should have existed a long time ago but didn't. We're making cyber exercises mandatory for companies that work in critical industries. And you mentioned the cyber strategy, and this is the location of some of the kind of big, thorny issues that we need to resolve to get to the aspiration that I have for our country, and that is that Australia should be and can be the most cyber secure country in the world by 2030. But we need focus and energy and attention. And that's what this problem is getting for the first time.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to get to some of the other big issues that are perhaps less talked about in your portfolio. Last year, you tasked former Victorian Police Commissioner Christine Nixon to investigate the endemic rorting of Australia's migration system by syndicates involved in human and drug trafficking. What has that review uncovered?
CLARE O'NEIL: Sure. So, there's two really big, important pieces of work happening in migration at the moment. One of them is a piece of work that's focused on the opportunity for Australia in fixing this system and delivering in the national interest. And the second is the sister piece of work that you've mentioned that I asked Christine Nixon, who is a former police commissioner in Victoria, to look at, which is about how we can stop this system being used to facilitate criminal wrongdoing. And one of the great frauds that's been perpetrated in Australian politics is Peter Dutton, presenting himself as the big tough guy who's tough on our borders. What has been shown in report after report after report is that our migration system is being used to facilitate worker exploitation. And not just that, but to facilitate some of the worst crimes that can be conducted. I'm talking about things like human trafficking and sexual slavery. Some really good reporting was done in the nine papers on the ease with which some of the aspects of this system are being abused to facilitate that type of conduct. So, Christine Nixon, she's as tough as nails, a great public policy expert, and she's come in and assisted me in having a good look at the elements which are supporting criminals to abuse this system. And she's going to provide the government with a report which explains how we can address it.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: I know you've agreed with - how widespread is it?
CLARE O'NEIL: Look, it's significant, it's significant, and it is the consequence of the system not being properly managed. We have to pay enduring focus and attention on our migration system to ensure that criminals and people who seek to do harm to Australians and others don't abuse systems like this. It's a problem in migration systems all over the world. But I would say we were in a particularly acute situation here. So, Christine has provided a report. It talks about a variety of ways in which the system is being abused. And before the Budget, which is happening on the 9th of May, I'll be able to speak about the specifics of what she's recommended and how the government will be responding.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, but just on that you say it's significant and what, we're worse than other comparable countries?
CLARE O'NEIL: Look, I think this is a problem in all countries, but I don't think it's going to be particularly surprising to Australians who are paying attention to this. That if a reporter from a major newspaper can uncover a human trafficking ring by simply picking up the phone and making a few phone calls from the newspaper, which is what Nick McKenzie from the Nine papers did, then we've got a pretty serious problem on our hands. And I don't think any person in this country wants to see our system used for exploitation and human trafficking and sexual slavery. It is completely contrary to Australian values and that’s why we’re taking it seriously.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Is the scale bigger than you seriously than you thought it was going to be?
CLARE O'NEIL: I think the scale is larger than I thought it was going to be, but I think the reporting that was done demonstrates that this problem is significant for the country and it certainly mandates the government taking action. Indeed, it would have been great to see something done about this in the years that preceded it. But the point is, we've seen the problem. It's been highlighted pretty clearly by investigative journalists. We've taken action and I'll be able to report on the specifics of that before the Budget.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Will law reform be necessary, Minister?
CLARE O'NEIL: I think we do need to look at the way that the migration law is facilitating exploitation. So, my Minister, Andrew Giles, who's the Immigration Minister and someone I work with really closely on these matters, has been going through a very extensive consultation process around how we can design exploitation out of our migration system. And so that will be considered as part of this broader set of reforms. Okay.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: And those reforms will be unveiled, you say, before the Budget, and will involve some significant changes to our system?
CLARE O'NEIL: That's correct, yes. We've got to get on top of these problems. It is untenable for our country to allow this to continue. That's why the government's seen the problem, taken it seriously, and we're about to respond.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Can you give me an example of the most widespread exploitation of the system?
CLARE O'NEIL: Look, I think the most widespread exploitation we see in the system is in the exploitation of migrant workers. And Christine Nixon is not the first person to report on this and to investigate it. We had the Fels Inquiry undertaken under the former government. We've had examples where there'd be Australian companies like 7-Eleven and Australian industries like agriculture, where we've seen that these sectors have become quite reliant on the exploitation of migrant labour. So, I think that is a widespread problem that I would have liked to seen firm action on from the previous government. We didn't get it, but we intend to act. I think the things we see that are really acute, like these human trafficking and sexual slavery instances, are much rarer, but of course, incredibly important that we see the government properly responding.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: How much will it cost?
CLARE O'NEIL: As I said, it's going to come out in the context of the Budget. So, let's talk again when the government's made its announcements.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: There's a story today as well that five universities are banning students from specific Indian states because of what they believe is a surge in fraudulent applications. Does the colossal jump in 408 class visas, which allow international students to work in Australia, suggest rorting to you?
CLARE O'NEIL: Look, it is a risk, but could I say what's going on with international students at the moment. We're seeing a large number of international students come back into the country because so very many, literally hundreds of thousands left during COVID, PK. So, this is in some ways a good news story because our education system is recovering. This is a really important export for our country, and I'm pleased to see students coming back into the country. I think the issue for us is that the student system is both one of the biggest assets that we have in our migration system because we're basically bringing brilliant young people from around the world here into our country, training them up in our brilliant education system. And for many of those people, they should get the opportunity to work for a period of time here in our country. It is also one of the main avenues through which exploitation occurs. And so we have to balance these two things. I think the reporting that was done today shows a system that's actually working. That reporting demonstrated that my department is becoming aware of concerns around the ways in which this system is working properly and partnering with the universities.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: But is there a case to tighten the rules around these visas?
CLARE O'NEIL: Look, I think we need to be really cautious about how we think about international students and the scope for exploitation. But I don't want the conversation about international students to be dominated by risk. It is an opportunity to - a really important thing for our country that all these wonderful young people are coming here to study. It's a very important provider of jobs and support for the higher education sector as a whole. But yes, at the other end of this, there is risk and the government is alive to it and managing it.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Now, you mentioned two pieces, and I started with the Christine Nixon review, which you've told me a little bit about now, and I know you've already received the migration review, the bigger piece, what will we be seeing from it in the Budget and will it be published?
CLARE O'NEIL: Yes. Okay, so I mentioned earlier that we've commissioned this major piece of work into the migration system. This is the most intensive, comprehensive, data-driven review of that system that's been undertaken for many decades. We will release both the report and the government's big-picture response to what's in that report before the Budget. So, what that will do is basically say of the ideas that are in that expert report, what are the ones that the government thinks are foundational to the creation of a migration system that works in Australia's national interest and basically how we will proceed from there. If I can just say in that report I will release it publicly and perhaps we can have another conversation then. But it is very damning and it does show that there are aspects of our migration system which are broken in fundamental ways. It is a system that is unstrategic, it's complex, it's expensive, it's slow, it's not delivering for Australian citizens, for businesses, or the migrants who are coming here under it. And we do need to think more about this and design a better system, because this is a big opportunity for our country. If we can get this system working in the national interest, we can lift our productivity, we can respond to the ageing population, we can help our country tackle these really big national challenges that we face. But we're not going to do it if we just kind of let it lay to waste, as the previous government did for ten years.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, we're out of time. Thank you for joining us.
CLARE O'NEIL: Great to talk. PK thanks so much.
PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister for Home Affairs and Cybersecurity, Clare O'Neill. And you're listening to ABC RN Breakfast.
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