SUBJECTS: GOVERNMENT’S RESPONSE TO THE SPECIAL ENVOY TO COMBAT ISLAMOPHOBIA REPORT, ISIS BRIDES, LABOR’S NATIONAL CONFERENCE

PATRICIA KARVELAS (HOST): Now, the Government released its response to the report by the Special Envoy to combat Islamophobia on Saturday morning. They have adopted recommendations on a new education taskforce, an expanded community liaison team for police, while rejecting the idea of amending terror laws.

Anne Aly is the Minister for Multicultural Affairs and happens to be a counterterrorism expert too in a previous life, although I'm sure she still has the knowledge. Welcome to the program.

ANNE ALY: Thank you, Patricia.

HOST: We're going to get to the Islamophobia Envoy's report and your response to it, but some breaking news this afternoon is that a Victorian woman facing terror charges after living under Islamic State rule in Syria will be freed on bail. Are you comfortable with her being in the community?

ALY: This is really a matter for the courts, Patricia, and it would be unwise of me to comment on a matter that is ongoing. I want to just assure all Australians that we have really good security agencies who undertake thorough checks, but this particular case is a matter for the courts.

HOST: I absolutely understand that the courts make the determination and that separation between the Parliament and, of course, the courts is important. But the Parliament does set the laws that the courts respond to, of course. Does it make the case for changing the laws, for having stronger laws?

ALY: We have very strong laws around terrorism based on a very strong definition of terrorism, one of the strongest in the world, as you or your listeners or viewers might know, there isn't a single definition of terrorism that's universally accepted, there are various adoptions of various definitions of terrorism. Australia has one of the strongest definitions and delineations of what terrorism is, and that's backed in by our laws.

I have the utmost faith in our security agencies and Australians should have the utmost faith in our security agencies.

HOST: There's another breaking story this afternoon. We've just received a statement from the Embassy of Israel in relation to the Labor Party's draft national platform. Now for those who don't know, the Labor Party conference happens mid this week, and so this is clearly topical.

The statement from the Israeli Embassy criticises several elements of what it says is placing responsibility for the conflict in the Middle East, obviously between Israel and the Palestinian struggle, on one party while giving insufficient attention to the actions of Palestinian leadership and Hamas. What's your reaction to their critique of this draft platform?

ALY: Well, they will do what they feel is right. But what I do want to say is, the Labor conference is a large gathering of the party, it's one of the most democratic processes of any party in Australia, it's certainly not the same process that the Greens Political Party or the Liberal National Party undertake, and there is always robust discussion, people put forward motions and people put forward ideas that they want to see in the platform, and there are robust discussions, but it is a democratic process.

HOST: And on the sort of substance of the critique, does it unfairly not, you know, put onus on the Palestinian side of the struggle?

ALY: In terms of the ‑‑

HOST: Yeah, the definitions. I mean their critique is that it gives insufficient attention to the actions of the Palestinian leadership and Hamas.

ALY: Well, again, this is something that we will be discussing at conference, and, the Israeli Embassy can put what they want to say, but the conference is about the Labor Party coming together and settling on our platform and having those robust discussions during conference in a very democratic way.

HOST: Do you support personally changing that platform to make the reflections that we're seeing in the draft?

ALY: I haven't seen either the suggestions or the specific wording of the platform, it will be something that I'll be partaking in during National Conference, along with everyone else who's there.

HOST: I want to move you to the big story over the weekend. You announced the response to the Islamophobia Envoy's report into Islamophobia and how the Government should tackle it. A couple of ideas weren't in it though, a Commission of Inquiry into the silencing of Palestinian views, and also the removal of religious or ideological motives for the definition of terrorism; they're both ideas that the Government has rejected. Why have you rejected them?

ALY: I want to start, first of all, by saying that this is one of the most significant moments for Muslim Australians. Certainly in my life time there has never been a Government that has taken Islamophobia as seriously, recognised that it is a problem and has been prepared to do something about it. This is really, really significant, and in the past we've had governments, and people in Parliament who have actually even questioned whether Islamophobia exists, whether it's real or not. So, this is huge, Patricia, really quite huge.

In terms of those specific two recommendations that you mentioned, the first one with regards to anti‑Palestinian and anti‑Arab racism there I think is the terminology that's used, I just really want to focus on Islamophobia. I’ve been in Australia since I was two years old, Australia is my home, it's my country. If I had to put down every incidence of Islamophobia, of racism or discrimination that I experienced purely because of my religious faith, it would fill a volume of encyclopedias, and that’s the case for a lot of Muslims in Australia as well.

I think we shouldn't be taking away from the fact that Islamophobia, and specifically the focus on anti‑Islamic hate, the targeting of people because of their faith, and particularly of women who are visibly Muslim, who wear the hijab, or who are visibly Muslim in other ways, we shouldn't take away from that. We need to be looking at Islamophobia in its entirety and in its own right, and what we did here was the right thing.

In terms of changing the definition, as I explained earlier Australia has one of the most comprehensive definitions of terrorism in the entirely world, because it incorporates both intent and motivation as well as the violence, the outcome of terrorism as well.

We're guided by our security agencies on the definition of terrorism. I believe that we have a very fit‑for‑purpose definition of terrorism currently.

HOST: The Secretary of the Lebanese Muslim Association has accused the Government of political cowardice and questioned the gap between Saturday's announcement and your full adoption of Special Envoy Jillian Segal's report into antisemitism in December. The argument is that you're giving Islamophobia a different response, and you didn't adopt all of the recommendations. What's your response to that criticism from the Lebanese Muslim Association Secretary, but there are other elements of the Muslim community that are concerned too?

ALY: First of all, I take a bit of issue between this comparative and this consistent comparison between, what are we giving to antisemitism, what are we giving to Islamophobia. Both are worthy of pursuit in their own right, both the elimination of Antisemitism and the elimination of Islamophobia, and racism in all its forms are worthy pursuits. I don't want to get into a competitive kind of environment of Islamophobia versus Antisemitism, and I take issue with that.

The second thing that I would say is that of the recommendations that we did adopt are things that are partly what we've already been doing, building on existing measures, but there are other measures in there that will require us to work with the States, for example, work with communities, for example, that may take a little longer, a bit more consideration to implement, that require more than just a government response, but a more comprehensive response across the board.

We've said that we'll continue, and Aftab Malik, the Special Envoy, has said that he will continue to work on those other 20 or so ‑ less than 20 actually, I think there are about 19 ‑ recommendations that weren't in the 35 that we've adopted.

HOST: Do you understand why the Envoy advocated for this though? You said you're still going to work on it. Do you understand why they're concerned that they haven't been adopted?

ALY: I speak to the Envoy fairly regularly. He's been amazing and worked so collaboratively with us on this thus far and continues to work collaboratively with us, and yes, I do understand, I understand that tackling racism, tackling Islamophobia is both systemic and it's also about individual behaviours, direct behaviours between individuals as well, and some things take longer than others, some things are easier to do than others.

But again, this is not just an issue for government to tackle. We can put in laws, we can have policies, we can have programs, we can fund things, but there's also a behavioural element, and part of it is also about communities, individuals, families, also making a decision actually about what kind of behaviour you are going to undertake and what kind of Australia you want to live in.

HOST: Just a couple of other issues, Anne Aly. How does the idea of mass deportation sit with you? Pauline Hanson says it's about targeting people who are illegally in Australia. Can you execute mass deportations of people in that category?

ALY: Well, you'd be surprised that I had better things to do than watch her interview last night, Patricia, but I did catch parts of it today, and I did see her response when presented with this idea of mass deportation and the way that her face lit up at the thought of being able to send a whole lot of people outside of Australia, and then as usual, when she was questioned on it, she took offence at being questioned, as she often does, she'll say something, and then questioned on it say, "How dare you question me on it?"

It doesn't sit right with me, purely because it really does ‑ it references an idea of putting a whole bunch of people on a boat or on a plane and sending them away without any real consideration of their entire circumstances.

You know, I'll leave it up to Pauline Hanson to explain, as she always often has to do once she's put out an idea, to explain what she means by mass deportation. But I think it's certainly not something that a lot of Australians would warm to.

HOST: Just finally, former Attorney‑General and your colleague, of course, Mark Dreyfus, has said Australia should consider banning protests outside synagogues and Jewish schools by introducing laws that are similar to those that apply at abortion clinics, which are a kind of zone where you can't go forward. Is that worth pursuing?

ALY: I believe that he made those comments in his submission to the Royal Commission on Antisemitism and Social Cohesion, and I do believe that we need to let the Royal Commission run its course and do its thing, and there will be a number of suggestions and a number of ideas that are put forward in submissions to the Royal Commission. I do think that we need to leave the Royal Commission to gather all of those and decide on all of those.

I will, however, say that this Government really takes seriously the security of religious places of worship and religious schools, and we have seen this enormous uptick in antisemitism incidences outside of synagogues, outside of schools, and as well as Islamophobic attacks on places of worship and at schools as well.

It's a sad indictment that we have to have security at schools and at places of worship, which is why we need to be doing all that we can as a government and as a society to stamp out hatred in all its forms.

HOST: Thank you so much for joining us, Minister.

ALY: Thank you so much, Patricia.