SUBJECTS: ISIS Foreign Fighters' Wives; Racism@Uni report

PATRICIA KARVELAS (HOST): Anne Aly is the Minister for Multicultural Affairs and Small Business, and I spoke to her a short time ago. Minister, welcome to Afternoon Briefing.

ANNE ALY: Thank you, Patricia. 

KARVELAS: Let's go to the families of the Islamic state fighters, women, and children. The Prime Minister's position does seem to compete with statements of the camp's governor, who has told a journalist in Syria that the Australian government had issued passports and the necessary documents for the families, and also informed their relatives to receive their loved ones from the camp. Why are there two messages here? Did the government issue them passports? 

ALY: Okay. So I don't think there are two messages here and they don't conflict and I just want to correct the record on that, Patricia, and be very clear. What the Prime Minister has said is that we will not repatriate people coming out of the Al-Hal or Al-Roj camps in Syria. The officials have a responsibility to issue passports to anyone who is eligible for an Australian passport, who asks for an Australian passport. That's at the official level. At the government level, as I said, we've made it very clear that we will not repatriate people coming out of the camps in Syria. 

KARVELAS: Save the Children though say these reports underscore what national security experts have now repeatedly said that the unmanaged return of Australian citizens would inevitably happen in the absence of the federal government actually taking action. So is it a dereliction of your duty by allowing this repatriation to occur off what looks like off the books?

ALY: Well, our duty is to keep Australian citizens safe. That is our duty, that is our primary - the primary duty of any government. We have not repatriated or assisted the repatriation of people coming out of those camps, and we will not assist the repatriation of people coming out of those camps. As I said, it is the right of any person who has eligibility for an Australian passport to present at an Australian office, and officials are obligated to provide them with an Australian passport. That is a very different issue to a government actively working to repatriate people from those camps. 

KARVELAS: Liberal Senator who was responsible for this area - we'll find out if he still is - Jono Duniam, has said the government should lower the threshold to issue these temporary exclusion orders. Why won't you do it?

ALY: Well, we're looking at different ways of managing this. But I think the principle that the Prime Minister has articulated very clearly is that we will not repatriate people coming out of those camps. Our primary duty, our priority that we take very seriously, is keeping Australians safe. 

KARVELAS: But does it worry you that these women and children are the victim of what seems to be a very inflamed political opposition to these women and children returning? 

ALY: Well, it always worries me when the opposition tries to score political points through misinformation and disinformation and in this case, you know, insinuating that the government is somehow working to repatriate people from the camps which we are not. But my primary concern is the safety of Australians. Now we have seen what the ISIS ideology can do in mobilising hatred and in mobilising violence. And the fact is that these people, the women and the children, have been in an environment where the ISIS ideology and the ISIS narrative is the primary ideology and narrative that they've been exposed to.

KARVELAS: Are you certain that they've been indoctrinated by it? 

ALY: You know that is something that I will leave up to the security agencies to undertake the thorough assessments that they do to ascertain that. You can never be certain. But you know, I think the primary, primary duty is to ensure that we do not import or bring back any kind of ISIS ideology because we have seen what that can lead to.

KARVELAS: There's also a lot of reporting about Muslim community leader, Jamal Rifi, and the role he is playing. He also ran a campaign for your Home Affairs Minister, Tony Burke, Friends of Tony Burke campaign. And there's clearly a lot of concern about that relationship and the fact that Jamal Rifi is playing this role. Have you asked questions at a higher level about what that relationship is and what Tony Burke knows about Jamal Rifi's work? 

ALY: Well, I know Jamal, and I know Tony, and I know that Tony is also - that his priority is to keep Australians safe. So I don't have - I don't know where these concerns are coming from. But I trust Tony Burke in his role as minister. I think he is a fantastic minister for Home Affairs and that he's doing a fantastic job.

KARVELAS: How about Jamal Rifi's work on this issue? Is that reasonable?

ALY: Well, Jamal Rifi has, you know, he's a private citizen, and he's got a personal connection there and, you know, he's free to advocate and to ask for whatever it is that he wants to ask for.

KARVELAS: I know, but if you weren't - and I know you are – a cabinet minister, if you weren't, you understand the sympathy he has to these women and children? 

ALY: Yes, understand the sympathy that he has. But you know, even if I wasn't a cabinet minister, I would still say that a government's first role and its first priority is to keep its citizens safe. 

KARVELAS: And so, the government's saying it’s hard line on this. The opposition is suggesting that you're sort of doing two things at once. Is the government able to be clearer with DFAT and say, no passport should be issued. Have you explored that? 

ALY: Well, DFAT and Australian officials have an obligation to issue passports when and if people are eligible for an Australian passport. That is a fact. That is quite different to the position that the government takes in ensuring and saying that we will not repatriate them. It's a different process. A process of applying for a passport and a process of repatriating them we have clearly said that there will be no government assistance. We will not repatriate people from those camps.

KARVELAS: On the Coalition's leaked immigration ideas that Angus Taylor clearly will have to revisit now - you worked in counterterrorism; is there any case to ban migrants from particular zones considered to be hotbeds of terrorism; could it help? 

ALY: Look, I think, first of all, I haven't seen - I've seen the leaked document of course. But I haven't seen a particular proposal and when and if the coalition comes out with a particular proposal, we will scrutinize that then. But they do need to come clean with the Australian population about what it is they actually are proposing. We already have strong laws and laws that were strengthened by this Labor government to deny people visas, people who want to come here and spread hate and create disharmony in our country. We already have strong powers to do that. I will make this point though; any kind of suggestion that people from certain countries or concern regions come to Australia with some kind of, you know, insidious or nefarious agenda to change our way of life or take over our country does a lot of damage. The vast, vast majority of people who come here, come here because they love Australia. They love our way of life and they share our values. And I don't think we should be lumping people all in to one category based on where they come from. From a terrorism perspective, if I may, Patricia, there is no demographic kind of typology of who becomes a terrorist and why. It is not based on where you come from or your demographics or anything like that. And the most, I guess, precise kind of or useful typology that we have of terrorist act is not based on their demographics or where they come from it's based on their psychology, on their contexts, on their life experience and a whole range of more complex factors.

KARVELAS: The racism at uni report released today concluded racism is pervasive across the country's 43 universities. It recommends a sector-wide framework and a government working group, annual independent reviews, and also the development of a specific antiracism strategy. Should this be part of the Royal Commission? 

ALY: Look, I think the terms of reference for the Royal Commission are very specific around that. I do think there is work to be done more broadly on racism, and I welcome the report on racism at universities. I think it's quite disturbing what that report has found about racism at universities. We are looking at that report as well as a number of other reports and antiracism framework. What I'm really looking at is what works, so being an academic geek, I've been looking at the academic research on what works in antiracism and I really want us to do things that have a proven track record of working in increasing social cohesion and breaking down racism and confronting racism because there absolutely is no place for racism in our society.

KARVELAS: But it's not just in universities, we're seeing a rise in racism across the community. That's despite the fact that we've been talking about fighting racism for a long time. So clearly something is not working. What's going wrong?

ALY: I think there are two things. I think there's a sense of complacency that antiracism isn't just the absence of racism, I think that there's a sense of complacency there. I do think there are some things that we need to be doing differently and there's research on where things are not as successful or sustainable as we might have thought they are so I do think that we need a really well informed and well researched approach to antiracism really looking at what it is that has worked in the past, what hasn't worked in the past, and where we can improve. 

KARVELAS: Anne Aly, thank you.

ALY: My pleasure, thank you Patricia.​