Subjects: ISIS families returning to Australia, de-radicalisation programs and effectiveness, Royal Commission into Antisemitism

PATRICIA KARVELAS (HOST): Opposition Leader Angus Taylor says the government has missed opportunities to block the return of ISIS-linked women and children from Syria. The ABC understands the group of 13 have booked flights that will see them arrive in Australia tomorrow, after spending years in a Syrian refugee camp. Now, earlier this year, the Coalition introduced a bill to Parliament that would make it illegal to assist people with links to terrorism from returning to Australia, but it was voted down. Mr Taylor says the proposed laws could have changed today's outcome.

[Excerpt] ANGUS TAYLOR: The government should have made every possible effort to keep these people out of the country. They have been part of an extremist cult that has conducted savagery on people around the world. They are savage terrorists, IS, and these people have supported that organisation. This government has assisted the repatriation and certainly supported third parties to assist that repatriation. When we put a bill before Parliament offering them the opportunity to prevent that from happening, they refused to support that bill. [End of excerpt]

HOST: For the Government's response here, I want to bring in Anne Aly, she's the Minister for Multicultural Affairs and Small Business and my guest this afternoon. Anne Aly, welcome to the program.

ANNE ALY: Thank you, Patricia.

HOST: Just in relation to these families that are coming, this cohort of women and children. The Government has been pretty hard-line that they shouldn't return, so why haven't you tried harder to stop them?

ALY: Well, I'll make it very clear that we have not provided any support for these women and their children, this cohort, current cohort of 13, as you mentioned, which is my understanding is four women and nine children, to return to Australia. We've made that very clear that we have not provided support, and we would not provide support. And I notice that you put a clip up earlier, just before this interview, of Angus Taylor. I reject outright everything that he said. I reject outright that the laws that they proposed would have prevented these women from being able to get on a plane and return to Australia. I reject his claim that the Government is helping. We are not helping. We have provided no support for the repatriation of these women and their children.

HOST: Okay, so you say you're not helping, but the police said today that some are set to be arrested, they wouldn't outline how many. If they are set to be arrested, couldn't the temporary exclusion order be placed on them? Wouldn't that have met the same criteria?

ALY: No, I think it's a different threshold there, Patricia. The threshold for a temporary exclusion order, one of which has been issued against one of - not this cohort but women currently in Syria, is a different threshold. You know, as the AFP Commissioner said, and the Minister this morning, Minister Tony Burke, the Minister for Home Affairs, said this morning, upon their return, should they return to Australia, the women would be under investigation, there would be an investigation to determine which laws, if any, they have broken and they would face the full force of the law.

HOST: One of the other questions that's been framed is around how much it will actually cost to monitor them. Do we know?

ALY: I can't give you a figure on that, to be honest with you, but I think that, you know, do you put a cost on keeping Australians safe? If this is a necessary action that needs to be undertaken, then we should - then it should be undertaken.

HOST: The ASIO boss Mike Burgess said he isn't immediately concerned by the return of these families. Do you share his confidence?

ALY: Look, I think that we have to be confident in our security agencies and take their advice. You know, I understand that there are people out there who would be concerned about the return of these women and of their children. But we do need to rely, and we rely heavily, on the advice of our security agencies. They are world-class security agencies. They have undertaken risk assessments. They have at their hands the tools that they need to be able to undertake those risk assessments.

HOST: If they're going to be monitored heavily, potentially arrested, wouldn't it have been better for the Government to repatriate them full stop, to ensure that the process is as robust and safe as possible for Australians?

ALY: Yeah, look I can hear - I hear your argument there, Patricia, and I would say this. I'd say let's cast our minds back to, like, 2014, 2015, at the height of ISIS activity, and it would have been incredibly difficult for anyone, any individual, male or female, to travel into Syria. It wasn't just a matter of getting on a plane and, you know, walking over the border. There were laws enacted that made it unlawful to travel to the region. There were travel warnings in place. Anybody who travelled to the region where ISIS controlled areas would have had to have a lot of support, would have to have a lot of planning, a lot of coordination in order to be able to get there. To me, that poses a significant risk that any individual who went there, actively or passively, would have had to be able to get into ISIS-controlled territory with a level of support, and not to mention also that underlying that kind of action would have been a deep-set belief in the mission of ISIS, which was essentially to establish a caliphate by a violent means. All of these factor as risk.

The role of the government is to keep risk outside of Australia, like to protect Australians, and we rely on our security agencies to give us the information that we need to be able to make decisions about risk, and on their decisions about risk. So, I don't know that it would have been possible to bring them back earlier. What I will say is that we are not bringing them back. They are on a plane. I understand –

HOST: They're coming tomorrow.

ALY: -- if they're on their way back, that's - they're doing that. They went there voluntarily; they went to Syria and now they have chosen that they don't want to be there anymore and they want to come back. We are not helping them in any way.

HOST: Okay. I spoke to Bridget McKenzie, who was making the argument earlier that when the Government sort of says, 'We're going to throw the book at them. The full force of the law, some will be arrested, as we heard from the Australian Federal Police, that there is a precedent, she argues, that, you know, the magistrate's thrown out a case before, that actually our laws have a threshold, which means that some of these people might be able to walk free. What's your response to that?

ALY: Well, I'm not going to speculate, as Bridget McKenzie did. This is a matter for law enforcement, and I'm also not going to undermine Australians' confidence, and the Government's confidence in our law enforcement and security agencies. And quite frankly, I think it's very irresponsible of anyone from the Coalition to purposefully undermine our law enforcement and our security agencies for political purposes.

HOST: Okay. In terms of the de-radicalisation, if I can make you wear your previous hat, 'cause you're an expert in some of this as well before your time in Parliament, do you think these children can be de-radicalised? Because Bridget McKenzie said that through her time on the Security Committee, she's not confident that de-radicalisation works.

ALY: Yeah, well, I wouldn't take her advice on that. I doubt that she's ever worked with young people who have been in de-radicalisation programs. Now I'll make this very clear. Not all de-radicalisation programs are 100 per cent perfect. It really depends on the skills and the level and the kind of program that it is, and it also depends on the stage of life in which somebody is coming to such a program. It's effective with young people, more effective with children and, you know, it depends on the kind of the mix of the program and what the program is. But also, the context in which the program is being delivered. I've seen programs delivered in places like Somalia that are completely ineffective because the economic and social conditions aren't conducive to de-radicalisation. But somewhere like Australia, there is a higher success rate in de-radicalisation, especially if you catch the individual at a younger age, and especially if you have a kind of a more holistic and wrap around approach to de-radicalisation.

HOST: So with these children that are on their way to Australia, do you think they can become de-radicalised and full and, you know, positive contributors to our community?

ALY: Well, Patricia, I'm a big believer in that the circumstances of your birth shouldn't determine the trajectory of your life. You know, that when given opportunity young people and children to be able to thrive, that they can. That's something that I strongly believe in. And having worked in countering violent extremism, having worked with young people who were heading down a path, a trajectory of violence and seeing how their lives can be turned around, I would have to say that yes, I'm a believer in those programs and I'm a believer in the ability of people to have a different trajectory in life.

HOST: Just finally, and on a different topic, the Royal Commission into Antisemitism has been holding public hearings this week, as you know. Today, a man was moved on from outside the Commission for wearing a Nazi swastika T-shirt outside it. How concerned are you about that kind of incident outside a Commission actually designed to stop that kind of antagonism and racism?

ALY: Yep. I was - it's disgraceful. It is absolutely disgraceful. The Royal Commission is hearing lived experience of antisemitism. Racism in all its forms has real impacts. It is traumatising and it can be triggering for people. It is not an opinion, it is not a slogan on a T-shirt, it is not your freedom of speech. Racism is objectively a harmful behaviour, no matter where it occurs and no matter who is carrying it out. So, I would say there is no place whatsoever, whensoever for that kind of racism. It is absolutely disgraceful and I am glad that this person has been, as I understand, allegedly, been identified by the police.

HOST: Thank you so much for joining us, Minister.

ALY: Thank you, Patricia.