​SUBJECTS: Conflict in the Middle East, Censure Motion Against Pauline Hanson

PATRICIA KARVELAS (HOST): Minister for Multicultural Affairs, Small Business and International Development, Anne Aly, joins me this afternoon. Welcome to the program.

ANNE ALY: Thank you so much, Patricia.

KARVELAS: I want to get to those comments, but let’s just start on this regional war we’re seeing.

ANNE ALY: Sure.

KARVELAS: Why is international law not a concern for your government’s support for these strikes?

ANNE ALY: Well, I think first of all, I want to just express our solidarity with the people of Iran and the Iranian diaspora, as well as the broader Middle Eastern diaspora here in Australia, who may have family and friends over in the region and who are understandably very concerned at the moment. So that’s the first thing I want to state. The second thing I will say is that we did not participate in this actively, but we do support an action that took out – took out – an oppressive leader who has committed unspeakable atrocities against his own people. I think the estimates are around 50,000 Iranians killed by the regime, specifically by Khamenei, over the past few months, I believe. And a regime that has consistently flouted international law.

KARVELAS: There’s no doubt that that’s the case with him, but it’s more about the method. Does the government support regime change?

ALY: The government supports the rights of the Iranian people to choose their regime, to have a say in who governs them. For too long, they have been oppressed and shackled by an oppressive leader. I don’t think anybody in Australia, and you know, particularly the majority of the Iranian diaspora here in Australia, feels any sadness over the death of Khamenei.

KARVELAS: No, but here it is, the US trying to bring on regime change, and it appears without much of a strategy. I mean, that’s dangerous, isn’t it?

ALY: Well, look, I think regime change is one thing, but I think we also have to look at the fact that it was – we had to do something, the international community had to do something in dealing with a rogue state and with an oppressor who has committed unspeakable atrocities against his own people, and not to mention also that the Iranian regime had - was behind two potential terrorist attacks in Australia as well. We’ve taken action against that regime. We expelled the ambassador. We’ve had umpteen sanctions against Iran. You know, if anyone has a better option, what was it?

KARVELAS: Well, people like Doug Cameron, you know, former Labor senator, say basically this is the American propaganda, this is the Israeli propaganda. Is that what you’re doing?

ALY: No, not at all. I mean, you know, there are facts, and there’s propaganda. And I think if you speak to any Iranians, particularly here in the diaspora that I’ve spoken to, they will tell you that they have lost family, that they have lost friends at the hands of a brutal dictatorship. That is not propaganda; that is real people.

KARVELAS: That is absolutely correct. But it’s more about the way that this has been executed. And clearly, there is nothing like upsetting people more than their fellow citizens dying because bombs are being rained down on them. Isn’t that the problem?

ALY: Well, I would say for the Iranian diaspora, what has been upsetting them for many, many months now – in fact, for a number of years – has been the way in which the Ayatollah Khamenei has treated the citizens of Iran with absolute contempt, has rained down terror on his own people and has flouted international law at every opportunity. So, I would say that we back the actions that took out a despot in the region.

KARVELAS: [Indistinct] ongoing actions now. So that despot is now dead. Iranians have even confirmed it, so we know this. Ongoing military action that could go up to four weeks, are you comfortable with that?

ALY: We would urge de-escalation as soon as possible, and I think Minister Wong has already stated that and has made that very clear.

KARVELAS: So you think it’s been won and done? It should be finished now?

ALY: I think we would all – everybody – would urge de-escalation. We do not want to see this into, you know, a full-blown right across the Middle East –

KARVELAS: It is already a regional war.

ALY: Look, I do note that Iran has done 

KARVELAS: I mean, Cyprus has just been hit.

ALY: I know, retaliatory attacks by the Iranians. I would hope that people would come to the negotiating table sooner rather than later, and we can see an end to this quickly and swiftly.

KARVELAS: Okay. Are you concerned about mosques and Islamic community centres in Sydney and Melbourne openly inviting members to honour the martyrdom of Iran’s dead leader?

ALY: Look, I think that – and I want to make clear that they are Shia mosques, so there is a sectarian difference within Islam of the Sunni and the Shia mosques. And I think that people in Australia, it’s a tenet of who we are as Australians that people are free to practise their faith as long as it is within the law. I would reiterate that as Australians, we do not mourn the loss of a tyrant and a despot –

KARVELAS: But is it appropriate that these mosques mourn this man?

ALY: Look, I think, as I said, I think, you know, mosques and people of faith are free to practice their faith, so long as it’s within the law.

KARVELAS: Is that within the law?

ALY: Currently, there is no law that says you cannot mourn the loss of your supreme leader, if that’s how they see him –

KARVELAS: Is that something that concerns you, though?

ALY: Well, of course, it concerns me. I think, you know, whenever we have something that has the potential to create division in Australia, that concerns me, whether it’s, you know, words coming out of Pauline Hanson’s mouth or whether it’s, you know, actions such as this. But I will say that as Australians – and we have made this very clear, Penny Wong has made it clear, Richard Marles has made it clear, the Prime Minister has made it very clear – that we do not mourn the loss of Khamenei.

KARVELAS: But under Australian law, you’re saying that you can’t stop mosques mourning his death?

ALY: Well, I don’t believe there is a law. If there is a law that prevents that, then I stand corrected.

KARVELAS: Does that mean there needs to be law reform? I mean, some people would argue that. I’m not arguing for it myself, but –

ALY: Well, I don’t know; let’s be careful what we wish for here, I guess. You know, like, do we want to have a law that dictates who you can and can’t mourn in this country? I mean, we do have to be careful when we talk about these things. What I’m saying is that if there is a law currently and they are flouting that law or they are going against that law, I stand to be corrected.

KARVELAS: In terms of our values, though – and this goes to points the opposition has been making about this sort of who’s in Australia and who’s not – if there are Australian citizens mourning the death of this man, that’s sinister, isn’t it, that’s disturbing?

ALY: Yes, but I don’t know that we can make laws about every Australian value that we espouse as Australians. I think there’s more work to be done in that regard around civics and around, you know, what are Australian values and education, and bring your people along with us. I don’t know that laws are always the answer to everything, Patricia.

KARVELAS: I want to talk about Pauline Hanson and the censure motion. That is obviously a key moment in the Senate. You’re not in the Senate, but it’s a moment –

ALY: Thank God.

KARVELAS: But it’s a moment, whether she’s censured or not, though, was contentious. The opposition didn’t believe in the censure part, but they have condemned her. There’s a couple, I think, who’ve crossed the floor on that issue. They were in the Senate. Is that parliament speaking at one?

ALY: Well, I think the censure motion was completely appropriate. I think objectively anyone who has listened to Pauline Hanson – not just on the recent remarks that she made about Muslims but over the years, whether it’s in relation to First Nations people or Asians – know that she’s a racist and that she, you know, uses racist language. And we’ve seen the kinds of things that that kind of racist language can do. We’ve just recently had a man arrested in WA who was plotting a terrorist attack on Muslims praying at mosques at the most sacred time of the Muslim calendar, Ramadan. So words have meaning. And I think

KARVELAS: Do you [indistinct]? Do you see –

ALY: I think there is a rising Islamophobia. I think Pauline Hanson has done a lot to normalise anti-Muslim hatred, and those words that she iterated the other day – it’s not the first time, by the way, that she’s targeted Muslims, let’s be clear on that; she has said it before – I think that she attempts to normalise anti-Muslim hatred. And I think that, you know, by and large, Australia has been very successful on social cohesion. There are times when we are tested, sure, but we’ve always risen to the challenge historically. And now is a moment for us to rise to the challenge again. And I think the censure motion in the Senate was absolutely the correct thing to do and sent a very, very clear message that we do not tolerate racism, number one, and, secondly, as leaders in this place we have a responsibility, and our words carry meaning, and we have a responsibility with our words to ensure that we do not inflame tensions, that we do not encourage hatred and we certainly do not encourage acts of violence.

KARVELAS: Minister, many thanks for coming in.

ALY: Thank you, Patricia