Topics: Afghanistan; humanitarian intake.
FRAN KELLY: Alex Hawke is the Federal Immigration Minister. He's announced 3000 humanitarian places will be allocated to refugees from Afghanistan. Alex Hawke, welcome to RN Breakfast.
ALEX HAWKE: Good morning, Fran.
FRAN KELLY: Minister, I'll come to refugee places in a moment, but first, the situation on the ground as it's unfolding. Have any more Australian planes, been able to make it into Kabul?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, as you say, Fran, it's a very complex and fluid situation in Kabul at the moment. So, what we've done is ensure we have the planes at our air base in Al Minhad. We'll be able to get them in regularly while the window remains open. Notwithstanding …
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] So far, we've only just had the one plane in and 26 people out. Is that all?
ALEX HAWKE: Yeah, and that was what was announced yesterday. So as the Prime Minister said, there'll be many more flights, we've got them scheduled. They'll be going in and out. We will establish that security environment on the ground with our international partners. There'll be regular updates. And I just want to make it clear that that first mission was an absolute success. The airport is a very chaotic environment. It is very hard to get to the airport. It is very hard to get through in a controlled way to a plane. And we were able to get out Australian citizens, Afghan nationals that we have an obligation to and some international partners, people as well on that first flight. There'll be more - and there'll be more people coming …
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] Why only 26? Why only 26 on that plane, what was the problem?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, you'll understand, Fran, the reason most ministers won't say much about what is happening on the ground at the moment are operational reasons, but there are plenty of factors on the ground. It is not a normal airport terminal for your listeners.
FRAN KELLY: Of course.
ALEX HAWKE: It is a chaotic environment. It is uncontrolled.
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts I think everyone's seen the images.]
ALEX HAWKE: Well, if you look at the images, I think the question answers itself, Fran. But yeah, we have our people on the ground in harm's way. They are in a pretty dicey environment doing their absolute best to get people to a plane. I can also say this to you, Fran. Sometimes people do not want to get on a plane at the moment, even when the plane is there, if their family members are not with them. There is a lot of complexity to what is happening on the ground in Kabul at the moment.
FRAN KELLY: Okay. Part of the complexity and the Foreign Minister spoke about this yesterday, the Taliban controls all the territory outside of the airport. There are reports of them blocking access to the terminals. An Afghan woman and child were viciously beaten when they tried to get through a checkpoint yesterday. A former interpreter was shot in the leg when they were trying to get to board an Australian plane. Many who are eligible to come are too frightened to leave home or are being turned away at these checkpoints. How many Australians are reaching the airport and any of the Afghan interpreters and support staff who we want to get out of the country able to get through to get into the airport? What's the situation?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, this is our number one focus, Australia's number one focus with our international partners …
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] So, what's the answer? How many are getting through at the moment?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, let me finish. This is our number one focus with our international partners. We can't guarantee security in Kabul. The US has had military forces there. The issue of negotiating with the Taliban, safe passage for foreign citizens, nationals and Afghan nationals who have visa documents for foreign countries is at the top of mind in the negotiations with the US and the Taliban and …
FRAN KELLY: I understand that, Minister. We understand it's difficult, but we're trying to find out how many are able to get through at the moment. Are any getting through these checkpoints?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, the situation evolves, you know, hourly and Fran, I can't answer that question, I can say to you we are working through the system to get anyone we can through those checkpoints and we call on the Taliban to recognise the rights of people who have visa documents to foreign countries to travel through it. That is a consistent international message in the whole international community. You have the UK on the ground, you have Germany on the ground. There is a lot of international community interest and pressure on this exact question. And you're right to raise it, Fran. We are working with our partners to get people the ability to get through those checkpoints.
FRAN KELLY: I'm just trying to get if there's any success through all that effort that is being made, because one report suggests that Australian personnel are telling people not to come to the airport, quote, you can hear the gunfire at the gate, no family should come because it's too dangerous. I'm just trying to get a sense of if we have - are having any success with those negotiations.
ALEX HAWKE: Yeah. Well, you understand, I can't go into operational details. I will say this - our officials here in Australia are working very closely with everyone we know that is registered, that we know has a visa on the ground to make sure they are safe to come to the airport when there is a plane. You can imagine, Fran, there is no point communicating to Australians to go to an airport, which is dangerous and chaotic if there is no place to go. The same with every other country and every other airline that is going. So, there is a control mechanism. There is a plan. It is evolving on the ground every day.
FRAN KELLY: Okay.
ALEX HAWKE: Our officials are working very hard with families over there. People will get the instructions. My advice to families here in Australia, and I'm working with them every day, is tell your relatives that have visa documents, that are ready to travel, they must listen to the advice they're getting from Australian officials. It will be accurate and timely.
FRAN KELLY: It's chaotic. We've all seen that. It's difficult. We can understand that. Former Defence Force Chief Admiral Chris Barry says the ugly truth is we've just left it far too late. We've known this moment would come since Donald Trump announced the US withdrawal in February last year. We pulled our embassy staff out ten weeks ago. Why wasn't a proper and orderly evacuation plan for when it was still safe to get out? Were we just too complacent?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, notwithstanding all of that, there is always a need to evacuate people, Fran. So many of the Australian citizens in Kabul now and in Afghanistan have chosen to remain knowing the situation themselves. And they've asked for last minute evacuations …
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] Yeah. But many haven't. I mean, we've spoken to lawyers here who are acting for hundreds of people trying to get their applications.
ALEX HAWKE: Well, let me, let me just finish, because we'll get to Afghan nationals in a minute. We're talking about Australian citizens, people who have an entitlement to come back to Australia. People do choose to stay in situ to the last minute. Everyone has been caught short by this. The entire world, including Australian citizens who were in Kabul. Some went for family events or recently, and the situation seemed stable even just two weeks ago. So, there is always a need to evacuate people at the last minute, regardless of your planning. Always. And so, we have Australian citizens to evacuate. We have Australians [indistinct]… chosen some are asking to come [indistinct]… themselves overnight, Fran. People are doing it now. So, there will always be an evacuation need. On the question of Afghan nationals that we have an obligation to, what I would say is this. We have had a program in place since 2013. It has been a good program. We have had 1800 come under it. Just in the last four months, we've had 640 Afghan nationals get a visa and we've had 430 of those come to Australia. So we're getting people out ...
FRAN KELLY: [Talks over] Okay. We know those figures. Could ...
ALEX HAWKE: Well, let me tell you something you don't know. We were getting people out on commercial airlines just on Sunday. Every single day there were Afghan nationals who we had an obligation to, getting out every single day, Australia was buying seats every day and safely getting them out.
FRAN KELLY: [Talks over] Let's go to what's going to happen, because Afghanistan is almost certainly on the brink of a full scale humanitarian crisis. You're setting aside 3000 humanitarian visas for Afghan refugees. There's plenty of capacity in Australia's annual humanitarian intake. It's capped at 13,500, COVID has meant there's plenty of space in that intake. Why only 3000?
ALEX HAWKE: Yes, so what we've done is allocate 3000, and these are new places in the sense within the program that were not existing at all. So ...
FRAN KELLY: [Talks over] Yeah, but why only 3000 is my question.
ALEX HAWKE: Well, because that is what we assess as the amount of people that we'll be able to take safely. That number will increase, I've already flagged that because we will add to that all of the Afghan LEEs that we owe obligations too. They've already been visa'd. Many of them are travelling now. And that number will grow. The reality is, Fran, we've taken 8500. When you add this, that will be about 11,000, 12,000, 13,000, maybe 14,000 Afghan people. That's very significant from a country like Australia.
FRAN KELLY: [Talks over] No, but I'm talking this year's intake, I mean, people are desperate. People are hanging off planes, falling to their death. They're terrified. Their lives are at risk. In good conscience, why are we being so ungenerous at this time? We took 12,000 Syrians in 2015. Is the issue that we don't want to take more or that you don't think you can get people out of the country?
ALEX HAWKE: Fran, there's an element of both. You mentioned Syria and Iraq, Syria and Iraq was the biggest humanitarian disaster in the world since World War Two. It displaced tens of millions ...
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] I don't know that we can be comparing humanitarian disasters. This is a disaster we're seeing unfold before us for many, isn't it?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, we can because millions of people fled to Europe. So we have a smaller scale, we have one country. We have a humanitarian crisis emerging from Afghanistan. We've allocated 3000 places, but we have already, through our orderly migration program, taken 8500 in 2013.
FRAN KELLY: [Talks over] Yeah, but that's over years, we're talking. Yeah, we're talking over years.
ALEX HAWKE: And in the last year, in recent years, that has been ramped up, and we've taken people through either Foreign Affairs or Defence that we've got obligations to. So people can say that was in the past, but Australia does this every single year. Other countries do not do this every single year. And so some countries will announce a figure because they have a lot of people on the ground or people have obligations to. Australia has been doing it every single year, taking in Afghans.
FRAN KELLY: Will people have to apply - normally to apply for this humanitarian intake, you have to apply for an offshore country, from a camp in Pakistan or Indonesia or somewhere. These people are stuck in the country. So when the government wants to focus on family members of Australians, persecuted minorities, women and girls [indistinct] Hazaras, will the 3000 be from Afghanistan? And how will you get them out?
ALEX HAWKE: Yes, and all the normal application rules will apply. So, family members. We're engaging. I mean ...
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] When you say the normal rules, will they have to be offshore to apply?
ALEX HAWKE: No, no, I'm- I'll explain what I mean, if you let me answer. So I'm engaging with the Australian-Afghan community here. And what that means is family can lodge applications for people in Afghanistan from here for humanitarian visas. It can be lodged by a third party entity, it can be lodged by a lawyer, it can be lodged by migration agent. The normal rules of application apply for humanitarian visas. We recognise people may be in a camp, they may be over a border. They may be unable to apply in the situation they're in. You are able to apply for [indistinct].
FRAN KELLY: [Talks over] They may be stuck in Afghanistan. Okay.
ALEX HAWKE: Yeah, they will be stuck in Afghanistan. So family, obviously migration lawyers, third parties, sponsors, people who are able to apply for humanitarian visas in the normal way.
FRAN KELLY: Minister, let's go to the situation we just heard from Zaki Haidari, who's one of more than 4000 Afghan asylum seekers living here in Australia on a temporary protection visa. He's been here nine years, I think. Every five years that refugee status is reviewed. Why won't you in the limbo and grant these people permanent settlement? Are you seriously considering sending them back to Taliban-controlled Afghanistan?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, Fran, the government's been clear, there's been no change in their situation. They are here. They have temporary protection in Australia. Nothing has happened to the IMA or-
FRAN KELLY: [Talks over] Yes but why not grant them permanent settlement?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, Fran, that is not a question for now, in my frank opinion. There is an emergency and a crisis. We're dealing with that. We've made it very clear there'll be no change now in the status of people who came by boat. And that's the government's clear position since 2013. So I know some people in the Labor-
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] Yes, but the world has changed since 2013. I mean, your immigration officials we heard earlier are telling- still rejecting people in last weeks because they say Kabul is safe. I mean, it's clearly not safe.
ALEX HAWKE: I'm sorry, Fran, I don't agree with that last assessment. Nobody is rejecting a visa on the basis that Kabul is safe. That is not correct. But I will say this, the government's position has not changed since 2013 and we're not changing our position. So that is an important part of our border protection. Temporary protection visas are an Australian visa mechanism. People are here. They are safe on a temporary protection visa [indistinct].
FRAN KELLY: [Talks over] People are here and they are safe, and they are working and they are paying taxes, and some of them are running businesses. And you're talking to the Afghan community about getting their families safe, who are stuck in Afghanistan and who are terrified. These people have families stuck there, too, but because they are on temporary protection visas, they can't come. Why is that fair?
ALEX HAWKE: Well, they have their applications in. They are being processed ...
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] They can't come because they're temporary protection visas.
ALEX HAWKE: Well, they can. [Indistinct] in the processing queue. And obviously now there is a change in the situation against that. They are not the only people in Australia whose family have been affected by changes in circumstances overseas. We cannot answer for every change in a country everywhere. But they have a right to apply. They have applied. But the people who are here on temporary protection, we are not revisiting their citizenship because they are safe. We do have to focus on who is unsafe, the emergent situation and the change in Afghanistan. And that's what we'll do.
FRAN KELLY: Just finally and briefly to be clear, Minister, are you saying to those 4000 people here on temporary protection visas that if they apply for their family in this situation, the rules may be changed, their family may be able to come?
ALEX HAWKE: I'm saying that they- the same rights they have under the Australian Migration Act and visa system apply. They can apply for their family members. They have- many of them have had visa applications [indistinct] ...
FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] But they haven't- families are not allowed to come, isn't it? Are they?
ALEX HAWKE: No, that is- the government has made no comment about that. There is no change to that cohort. I've been clear about this, so has the government. Nothing has changed for them. They are safe here. So we need to focus on people who are not safe and people who we need to evacuate. And that's what we are doing.
FRAN KELLY: Minister, thank you very much for joining us.
ALEX HAWKE: Thanks so much.
FRAN KELLY: Alex Hawke is the Minister of Immigration and Citizenship.
